Rays 2, Braves 0 (by coop)

Pitching dominated hitting tonight. The Perez boys, Williams and Erasmo, were both efficient; but Erasmo was one pitch better.

Both sides had six hits, but Tampa Bay scored the game’s two runs on a seventh inning home run by Kevin Kiermaier. That’s all our Perez gave up in his complete game effort; but when your team doesn’t score, you can’t win. Just ask Shelby Miller.

Nick Markakis was the Braves least despicable hitter tonight, with an almost rbi double in the first and a last gasp single in the ninth. The Braves best chance at scoring ended with Cameron Maybin being thrown out at the plate on Nick’s double, and the Rays broadcast team thought he’d have scored had he not gone all acrobatic in his slide.

Adonis Garcia had two singles, Maybin one and Andrelton Simmons one.

Williams Perez threw a complete game six-hitter, though he did walk four. It was his best game since his DL stint and hopefully a harbinger of more good outings to come. Tampa Bay deserved to win and did. Williams pitched well enough to win but didn’t. Life and baseball are sometimes not fair.

89 thoughts on “Rays 2, Braves 0 (by coop)”

  1. Evan Gattis now has 8 triples and is tied with 4 others for second in MLB. He’s half way to the record 16 for most in a season without a stolen base

  2. Going forward, I’m predicting a Joe Carter-like career for Gattis. Unfortunately, it’ll be going forward from Joe Carter, age 36.

  3. One William pitched well enough to win
    One William made one bad toss
    Neither William needed the bullpen
    But both Williams shared the loss

  4. John’s been clutch on the poetry. I wish his clutchness would wear off on the office.

    Alright, I’m behind home plate for the Barves tonight. Closer seats means a better view of a punchless lineup.

  5. Joe Carter is an interesting player for advanced metrics. He was a 30-30 player, a 5-time all-star, 2-time silver slugger, had over 2000 hits, almost hit 400 homers (396), and almost 1500 RBI (1445) but was only worth 19.3 rWAR and 11 wins below average for his career.

    At age 36 in 1996, he hit 30 homers and drove in 107 runs. He made his final all-star appearance that season, as those power numbers suggest, but he had a negative rWAR at -0.5.

    Which is more or less Evan Gattis’ situation in 2015. Good comparison @3.

  6. Ignore the defensive part of WAR when comparing players. That’s the only sane way to look at things.

  7. Especially when said players are mostly DH’ing. I don’t think Gattis’ 9 games in LF this year mean much.

  8. If there is a Joe Carter equivalent available. Grab him. Those 1500 rbi are very difficult to duplicate.

  9. @14

    So did Bucky Dent and I’m not exactly clamoring for his equivalent.

    In all seriousness, I would certainly take an early-career Joe Carter. Not a Hall of Famer by any means but a multiple time All-Star. JohnWDB listed all the stats above. A 36-year-old one is another matter, obviously.

    On a bit of a sidenote, it would be very interesting to see how Joe Carter would be received if he played today. As John mentioned, WAR lists him as below average for his career and he had a negative WAR in a season in which he hit 30 HRs and drove in 100 runs. Back then, the SABR era hadn’t yet started. It was a burgeoning movement at the time but wasn’t near what it is today in terms of a mainstream philosophy. Moneyball didn’t come out until 2003 and the Oakland team that the book followed played in 2002. Joe Carter had some undeniable great moments and was a very good middle-of-the-order power bat, and at the time, it seemed like he was on the second tier of “best players in the game today” conversations. He obviously wasn’t Griffey or Bonds, but drop from those heights and I think you’d have heard some arguments for him. Would he have been in those conversations today, though? I think he would’ve been an interesting argument case between old-schoolers and SABR folks. (I guess he still is, but it’s different with a player that’s actually playing at the time and winning the World Series with walk-off homers and such.)

  10. As to you who want to ignore the defensive part of WAR.

    Do that and then compare Andruw Jones and Joe Carter. That will make them almost equal (maybe even put Carter ahead). Then, if you REALLY believe you would rather have (at same price)”Joe Carter career” than “Andruw Jones career”, step up and tell us why and how you reconcile that with ignoring the defensive part of WAR.

    Same process with Brooks Robinson takes him out of the Hall of Fame. Same thing with Ozzie Smith.

  11. My stance is that if you play corner OF or 1B (or DH!) then your bat is what you are judged on.

    I have never once thought of comparing Andruw Jones to Joe Carter. They played vastly different positions. The point of WAR is to try to compare them anyways. I think that’s dumb.

  12. I think it is hard to measure defense.

    Do you get extra points for diving catches? What about being aggressive and throwing in behind a runner? Missed the cutoff man?

  13. @20,

    It’s a fair point when you’re talking about DH’ing. Being a DH makes you an automatic -1.6 dWAR (or something) because you provide no value in the field. But it’s definitely possible to be much worse if you actually play in the field…

    Joe Carter was a -3.1 dWAR in LF for the Pads in 1990 (30 yo). That’s comically bad, but probably about how Evan Gattis would do if he played LF for a full season.

  14. That reminds me, Rafael Palmeiro won the Gold Glove for first base in 1999 despite playing 128 games as DH (and 28 as 1B)

  15. If you’ve watched Hanley play left field this year, you’ve had plenty of opportunity to witness how a guy playing in the tiniest outfield in the majors can still be such a butcher that his glove alone can cost his team multiple games.

    Corner defense matters. Not as much as up-the-middle defense, because you don’t get as many chances, but it matters. A run allowed is as valuable as a run scored.

  16. Defense definitely matters, perhaps less in the corner OF positions than in CF, but it still matters. The issue is that nobody can come up with a stat that’s up to the task of measuring it well. And that inclues both dWAR and UZR. Until someone does, it’s much better as a subjective determination. I know that drives people up a wall, but there it is. Folks that don’t like it and are so inclined should help come up with a defensive stat that’s worth a crap, in my opinion, as opposed to continuing to parrot dWAR and UZR. I am confident that it is possible to come up with a stat that accurately measures defensive value. It’s out there somewhere, but the current metrics are not it.

  17. Okay krussel,

    Give a magnitude to fit this:

    Chipper Jones’ career >, <, = Brooks Robinson's career. If not equal, how much magnitude difference. Same position. Both long career players. Everybody knows both were very good. By bat (adjusted for era), no question it is Chipper. By both combined, maybe not.

    You can quibble with the WAY WAR measures defense and the short term variability of defensive WAR statistics, but over a career they are extraordinarily accurate.

    You are right to say defense is less important in left field than center field. Years of major league managers filling out lineup cards quantified that difference for WAR calculation purposes. Those positional defensive adjustments aren't randomly selected from the air.

    To really go to an extreme, Pete Incaviglia in 1993 was a platoon LF. He had great offensive numbers. In a few games (one in lcs against Braves) I saw some of the worst defense ever. Basically, a pop up to left was a hit unless it landed within 30 feet of where he was standing when it was hit. The Phillies got away with it, but I can't imagine he REALLY had value.

  18. Evan Gattis in LF in the 2013 NLDS…the ball pinging around in the corner still gives me nightmares

  19. Will anyone on our team get an MVP vote this year? I don’t think so.

    Trivia question for the Journal: When was the last time no Brave got an MVP vote?

  20. And I’d be wrong, both Justice and Gant picked up a smattering of votes. Lonnie Smith in 1989 received some votes – but no one from 1988 got a vote.

  21. John 33

    no MVP no ASG
    beyond that single courtesy
    but Hart will win the MPTY
    most players traded who have no idea why.

  22. I doubt it, but I also don’t know how meaningful it is. Their recent MVP “candidates” have been exceedingly questionable — a handful of votes for Freddie and Justin Upton last year; some dumb votes for Kimbrel were all that were cast for a Brave in 2011; Yunel Escobar(!) was the only Brave to receive votes in 2009.

    Their only serious MVP candidates in recent years were Freddie in 2013 and various Chipper campaigns, and even in Freddie’s case it’s tough to argue for him over Paul Goldschmidt, much less Andrew McCutchen.

  23. @32, Chipper was the better hitter. I’d rather have Chipper on my team. I’m not ever going to argue that defense doesn’t matter. I am going to argue that most guys that are capable of playing at the major league level should also be able to play passable defense at the corners.

    You guys can have Michael Bourn in LF. I’ll take Ryan Klesko. My team will be better than yours.

  24. You guys can have Michael Bourn in LF. I’ll take Ryan Klesko. My team will be better than yours.

    Not if I have Kershaw pitching and you have Chuck James.

  25. 1988 is correct. That was the first year of bad Dale Murphy. 1989 was Lonnie Smith’s miracle 8.8 WAR season (which incidentally led the league).

    Nobody on the 1988 team got a Cy Young vote that year either. Ron Gant was 4th in the ROY voting in 1988, however.

    The last time Braves got no votes for any of the big 3 awards was 1976. We’ve got an excellent chance this season. The only player deserving of any vote is Shelby Miller, and he’s 5-9

  26. @46, but is Chuck James better on defense than Klesko? These are the types of questions that nobody ever asks.

  27. Chip and Joe are having a wonderfully anti-intellectual jeerfest about how SABR couldn’t keep Jaso from that baserunning mistake

  28. Jake–
    Is he not OD or izzi?

    It makes my heart glad to see Grady Sizemore hit a homer. There was a time when he was as good as they came. He had compiled 25 war by age 25. The HOF was certain, barring injury. Injury was disbarred.

  29. Joe Simpson is complaining about Terdo moving up to third on that sac fly and comparing it to the time he got thrown out doing in the same thing last year. But it makes much more sense to try and get to third base with one out, as evidenced by him scoring on that wild pitch.

  30. Ok a clerihew for u blazon

    Odorizzi, Jake
    His last name a mistake
    So was that Ciriaco meatball
    It turned into a seats ball

    Jake Odorizzi
    He’s not a Brave is he?
    If not, l hope to see him wince
    At the feeble hands of our offense

  31. Terdo did well to score on that wild pitch, it bounced back a long way. Perez OOH must have been asleep on his chance which was easier. right?

  32. Good God, what a shitshow!

    I’ve said it before, but a game like this would take a year off my life if we were actually in a race. As it is, I’m merely bemused.

  33. @66, if you’re directing that at my comment above yours, that wasn’t directed at you. Mine was directed at Pierzynski, Marksberry, and this game in general. Sorry if that wasn’t clear!

  34. I’m officially turning this bullshit off. Kudos to our bullpen and defense for managing to perfectly fuck a game up in one inning. Seriously, I’m not sure they could’ve done one thing more to hand this game over if they’d tried. Thankfully, unlike Rob, I didn’t pay any actual money to watch this abortion.

  35. Outside of Vizcaino, I don’t think there’s anyone on this bullpen I want on the team next year…they’re all just interchangable low 90’s fastballs with uninspiring secondary pitches.

  36. I went to trader joes and we were up 6-3. I just got back and I see there has been a reversal. Judging by the comments, I shouldnt back up this DVR

  37. I’m late on this, but @93 in the previous thread was my favorite of the Cherihews. I greatly enjoyed reading them all. You denizens are a creative bunch!

  38. And Bethancourt has three hits and a walk tonight. It’s almost as if they’re facing the our bullpen.

  39. Betty has been a doubles machine for Gwinnett this season. That’s 16 in just over 160 AB. Now hitting .329 for them and even walking a tad. Also, too early to conclude anything, but jason hursh has been pitching well since he became a reliever. That’s good bc he was going to be a middling starter at best, and we could use a middling reliever.

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