I hate the Dodgers game thread: Aug. 13, Dodgers at Braves

Hate hate hate. HATE. I am a traditionalist in this way. You know that little devil thing I occasionally use as an icon? I originally looked it up and colored it to represent your average Dodger fan. (The Royals logo and suspenders came later, with the Millwood trade I think.) I hate the Dodgers.

241 thoughts on “I hate the Dodgers game thread: Aug. 13, Dodgers at Braves”

  1. What wins?

    Your level of hate towards the Dogers or Phillips level of hate towards the Cardinals?

  2. so, if the mariners were to take kawakami and his 7.33 mil and mclouth and his 7 mil for figgins and his 28 mil, would you do it?

  3. Out of curiosity, to those folks who think Figgins is overpaid–who do you think the Braves should get, for the next few years, to play CF, LF, 3B, and SS? At some point you’re gonna have to pay, and like it or not Figgins has a league-avergae salary and, if he could return to being a 3-4 WAR player, would be worth it.

    (of course, he might not, in which case it’s a bad salary; but folks are acting like $26 million over three years is an insane contract; it’s not)

  4. IMHO on why no to Chone
    .287 .361 .379 .740 – career
    Those slash stats look good at 2b. But we already have a 2b.
    That .379 slugging pct simply doesn’t cut it at a corner infield position.
    They look good in CF too, I think. But the last time he put significant time in CF was in 2006 at age 28.
    He is 32 with a large part of his game built on speed, which is the first athletic ability to decline as a player ages.

    Just my opinion.

  5. He hasn’t played CF since 2006 and has only played 12 games in LF or RF over 2007-2010. He’s only played 150 innings at SS with none since 2006. So at this point he’s really a 2B/3B and we have Prado and Infante for those positions and there’s still some chance Chipper will return next year.

  6. Here’s the article. Man, that’s good stuff.

    Johnny, believe it or not, those numbers look good at 3B, too. After the huge stars (Longoria, Zimmerman, Wright, Rodriguez) there isn’t a whole lot of depth at the position across the majors.

    Also, bat speed often decreases before leg speed — hence the “old player skills” tag.

  7. @4 It is for a club on a limited budget. That’s a bit much to risk on a renaissance during age 33-36. And don’t forget the vesting option for age 37. Let’s put the shoe on the other foot – would you sign him for that this offseason?

  8. My hatred of the Dodgers has faded with time, but I still really dislike them. My first year watching baseball was 1982, and I learned to hate the Dodgers and the Cardinals. The first two players I ever loathed were Steve Garvey and Darrell Porter, thus beginning a longstanding tradition of unknowingly picking the players with serious off-the-field issues to hate (see Leyritz, Jim).

  9. Finally, this stuff is coming out, and if you think this is the exception, you are crazy. The poormouthing from MLB teams is just jawdropping in it’s chutzpah – which is why they only let select individuals who are deemed reliable in the club. Big Stein only had to come up with 10M, and almost all of that was self financed – I think he really ponied up about 100k in cash. There is no way Mark Cuban will ever get a team, no matter how much he bids.

  10. I wouldn’t sign Figgins for that this offseason. But if the M’s sent over cash, I’d certainly perk up my ears. I hesitate to call Kawakami a bad contract — he’s essentially a league-average pitcher getting paid what league-average pitchers deserve — but he’s an unnecessary contract on THIS team, where we have a guy like Mike Minor who’s better than KK right now.

  11. Alex, I get you but two questions – how much cash do you think they’d send, really, and do you honestly think this represents an upgrade of any kind?

  12. Alex, thanks for linking. To me what is so fascinating about that article is how the McCourts essentially managed to trade a highly leveraged parking lot in Boston for one of the crown jewel franchises in MLB.

    I didn’t compare the numbers to other 3bs. My bad. I was just taking the traditional stance that a corner infielder should slug a little. That .379 slug% looks like Gregor Blanco’s.

    #8 – To your point a mid market team has to spend wisely and get lucky.
    I know that there are some Wren bashers out there but:
    Wagner – win
    Saito – win
    May and June Glaus – win
    Hinske – win
    and yes dumping Vazquez salary and getting Melky was a win.

  13. post-chipper lineup…

    1. Infante 2B, 2. Heyward RF, 3. Gonzalez SS, 4. McCann C, 5. Glaus 1B, 6. Hinske LF, 7. Conrad 3B, 8. Ankiel CF, 9. Hudson

    without prado or chipper, this looks almost like a getaway day lineup. glaus, heyward, and ankiel better start cranking ’em out like we know they can.

  14. Ha! I had that snake card. It was my favorite card as a kid, and one of the reasons Hubbard was my favorite Brave.

  15. how much cash do you think they’d send, really, and do you honestly think this represents an upgrade of any kind?

    I really don’t know what kind of money we could reasonably get. But an upgrade? Yeah, kinda, maybe. Our organizational depth in infield and center field is piss-poor. I mean, obviously, my whole argument hinges on the kind of money that they’d be willing to throw at us to make it worth our while. And I’m betting that’s a big reason the trade didn’t happen back in July.

  16. think about this…if we were to acquire figgins (which i’m not terribly high on but have ya seen the other candidates?), then our split lineups could look like this:
    rhp
    1.figgins-3b
    2.prado
    3.heyward
    4.mccann
    5.hinske
    6.glaus
    7.gonzalez
    8.ankiel

    lhp
    1.figgins-cf (for this trade to work, we have to be able to utilize him in the outfield)
    2.infante-2b
    3.prado-3b
    4.diaz-lf
    5.bmac-c
    6.glaus1b
    7.heyward-rf
    8.gonzalez-ss

    now, look at the lineup from today and see which one’s you prefer.

  17. @22, it’s a choice between strychnine and twinkies. Yeah, it make take a little longer, but twinkies will kill you just as dead. Figgins is not a difference maker – that team is either on the outside looking in or a first round exit. Unless it was a deal that financially favored the Braves, what’s the point?

  18. But Twinkies taste a lot better than strychnine, and they are a lot less toxic.

    If Twinkies is trading Kawakami for Figgins, then strychnine would be trading Brian McCann for Alfonso Soriano. Figgins won’t kill you, he just won’t make you any healthier. McCann for Soriano would literally kill you.

  19. I hope we can convince the Dodgers to leave some of their players with us during the homestand, like when you build a Diplomat in Civilization and send it to an enemy city to engage in sabotage. They’re pretty much ready to acknowledge that the loss to the Phillies was the final nail in their 2010 season… they don’t need some of those players any more.

  20. I don’t see why we want Figgins. His OBP had been pretty bad until last year, which seems to be an outlier year. He’s struggling this year. I don’t see that he represents much of an upgrade other than he provides some speed. But Bobby isn’t going to all of a sudden turn this into a speed team. The only real positive I could see is that having Figgins would allow Infante to go back to the role he is most valuable for–depth and ability to play all over.

  21. Why in all blue hells is AAG batting third? Might as well bat McCann eight while we’re making stupid lineups.

  22. I wouldn’t say his OBP was “bad,” Marc. From 2007 to 2009, he posted OBPs of .393, .367, and .395, and he averaged a .301/.386/.382 line for those three years. Of course, you could point out that the last thing we need is another guy who has no power against lefties, and I would be unable to disagree.

    But we’re undermanned in our starting lineup right now. Brooks Conrad has no business being a starting player, and Eric Hinske and Omar Infante are really better as three-day a week players than six-day a week players. And I’m pretty convinced that Figgins could outplay Melky Cabrera with his eyes closed.

  23. Read the Cameron article.

    This quote is amusing…

    “Would I rather pay Kawakami $6.7 million for one year or pay Figgins $26 million for three years? The former, and given the Braves current situation, you might be able to do even better than that. Whether its getting them to kick in some of the money owed to Kawakami for next year or kicking in a mid-level prospect in order to make the deal happen, this is the kind of move that the Mariners should be willing to make.”

    So he wants the braves to put up more money or send a mid-level prospect… Really? A 4 year commitment with a 32 year old with a career 97 OPS+.

    Well then… come around to door #3 so you can take a good look at Derek Christopher Lowe.

    Edit: Alex… You don’t think this would be a lousy panic trade?

  24. Why in all blue hells is AAG batting third?

    Because he has power. A twenty homer man does not bat 7th.

  25. f’n great. so the braves are going to be handicapped in 2011 much like they were handicapped in 2010 except chipper might or might not be healthy. too bad all the free agents will be gone by the time chipper can make a decision. this really hinders the braves making any big time moves this offseason.

  26. Wasn’t Figgins one of the guys Coach wanted to get? DO YOU REALLY WANT TO BE LIKE COACH?? Might as well trade for that Durango guy.

  27. I would guess that when Prado gets back we’ll see Heyward batting 3rd and AAG will move to 7th again – just a guess.

  28. I think the Braves have to act as though Chipper will never come back, and I think that Chipper has to understand that. I know that they’re saying the recovery time is 6 months, but I don’t believe that for a second. He’s a 38 year old who just this year has missed games due to injuries to his hamstring, back, fingers, groin, and oblique, and that’s not to mention his chronic foot problems. He’ll be rehabbing all winter, and then he’ll need extended spring training. He wouldn’t be ready to join the team until May-June at the earliest.

    If he is ever remotely healthy again, they’ll find a place for him.

  29. 36—No. He wanted Durango, whom he saw as a young Figgins.

    31—Sound reasoning and a persuasive argument.

  30. @13 what from Minor the other night led you to believe definitively that he’s ‘better’ than KK. I didn’t see much but a guy that happened to be left handed. I don’t think he’s much more than a guy, which is what KK is except RH.

  31. I didn’t see much but a guy that happened to be left handed. I don’t think he’s much more than a guy, which is what KK is except RH.

    Chief, as far as I can tell, that is pretty much your opinion of every single player on our team.

  32. What’s the over/under for number of years before the Braves get a real 40+ HR threat? Because I really just want that one guy who drives all sabremetricians crazy.

    Can’t we splice Freddy Freeman’s and Cody Johnson’s DNA and end up with something like a cost controlled Adam Dunn for 6 years?

    EDIT:

    Mostly unrelated, but I just found this twitter account – twitter.com/JoseCanseco. At first I thought it was pretty funny, but then I saw it was a Verified Account and it made me sad. =(

  33. Just for laughs, I was looking back at the MVP voting from the last 20 or so years to find the most egregious mistake. It’s hard to argue against Juan Gonzalez and his 2.8 WAR winning over Alex Rodriguez (9.4 WAR) and Griffey (9.7 WAR) as the most undeserving winner. However, for sheer stupidity in voting, I don’t think anything beats Dante Bichette and his .3 WAR (that’s right, .3, not 3) finishing second in ’95, just ahead of Greg Maddux (8.7 WAR).

    Joe Carter is often cited to as the most overrated player of the modern era, but how about Dante Bichette? We’re talking about a guy who made four All-Star appearances despite never eclipsing .7 WAR in those seasons. The guy ended up making $42 million dollars over a 14-year career despite a career WAR of 2.0.

  34. By the way, here’s what Matt Kemp’s agent just said recently:

    I’m almost to the point — and maybe so are the Dodgers — where I’m thinking that this just isn’t going to work. The Dodgers have gaps on this team, and maybe they could fill them by trading Matt. It could be good for the team, and good for the player…

    It’s very, very difficult to play under the circumstances that Kemp is playing under…

    The thing we have to look at is, is there going to be a fit? Is he going to be able to get past the public scrutiny? Matt has to wonder, ‘If these guys don’t like me, how can I play for them?’

    Sounds like the Matt Kemp era in Los Angeles is awfully close to an end. They need pitching. We have pitching. Seriously, make this happen.

  35. While I would love to get Matt Kemp and hope we somehow make it happen (though at this point I’m too cynical to believe Wren will do it.. gotta hang onto all those arms so that we can have our 9 man rotation in 2012!), getting Kemp would just make the Yunel trade that much more stupid. You trade one guy because he’s a bit of a complainer in the clubhouse and having a bad year, and you acquire a guy who’s a bit of a complainer in the clubhouse and also having a bad year.

    smh @ that trade.

  36. @46, Pendleton over Bonds springs to mind. Not as bad as Bichette, obviously, but pretty bad.

    @49, Wren would never let a clubhouse cancer like Kemp near this ballclub.

  37. Won’t we need KK when Minor reaches his innings count limit? Do we have another starter somewhere>

  38. TP was a worthy MVP. Here you have:

    1. A player who played a leadership role on his new team, which rose 29 games in the standings and won the division;
    2. A player who played a key defensive position at a Gold Glove level, solidifying a defense that had been poor for years;
    3. A player who put up some of the best numbers in the league and won the batting title.

    That’s an MVP. As Bill James once said about basing awards solely on the numbers, nobody needs a razor blade company to tell them which reliever had the best statistics.

  39. While I would love to get Matt Kemp and hope we somehow make it happen

    Yeah, I would forgive a lot of sins if Kemp showed up. But he’s a ‘bad clubhouse guy’ and apparently that is important to us. -rolls eyes-

    ESPN’s saying he addressed the media and that its not the proper time to decide if he should retire, so he’s going to rehab and give it a go in spring training.

    So basically it forces the team to budget the $13 million as ‘spent’ even though it’s a long shot he’ll contribute anything. Handcuffing the team in upgrading the many holes we see everyday. Awesome.

  40. “I was interested in Figgins as an OF for 2010, a 3B for 2011-12. Not so much as a 3B for 2010 and a LF for 2011.”

    This is my problem too. I’m good with him at 3B this season, but less so in the OF next year. Nonetheless, I remain far more intrigued than most here.

  41. Yeah – Chipper’s salary without Chipper? And years left on Lowe’s deal?

    Hello, basement.

  42. Btw, whoever earlier in this thread gave out the sarcastic statement that we should save all our pitching pros(sus)pects for our 9 man rotation made me ROLL with laughter earlier. Well played, sir/or madam.

  43. 1. A player who played a leadership role on his new team, which rose 29 games in the standings and won the division;
    2. A player who played a key defensive position at a Gold Glove level, solidifying a defense that had been poor for years;
    3. A player who put up some of the best numbers in the league and won the batting title.

    1. Then you won’t mind quantifying Pendleton’s contributions to these things, and contrasting them with Bonds’ worth in such matters.

    2 Bonds was a Gold Glover. Terry was not a Gold Glover. Argument over. Seriously, Bonds was a far better defender than TP by any measure that season.

    3. Bonds had a BA within 13 hits of TP’s not to mention 107 BB to Terry’s 43, and put up far better numbers, including a massive wOBA and wRC+ advantage. Please explain how the value of the batting title compares to Bonds’ superior offensive contributions.

    TP was great that year, and obviously a central contributor to the team’s success. He only bests Bonds in BA (minimally) and how you are scoring this leadership function. I just can’t fathom how you can weight these heavily enough to overcome the other major deficiencies

  44. #66 – I think I missed the part where you made the position adjustment between LF and 3B.

    And this:

    2 Bonds was a Gold Glover. Terry was not a Gold Glover. Argument over. Seriously, Bonds was a far better defender than TP by any measure that season.

    Is laughable on it’s face considering the positional difference.

  45. Btw, whoever earlier in this thread gave out the sarcastic statement that we should save all our pitching pros(sus)pects for our 9 man rotation made me ROLL with laughter earlier. Well played, sir/or madam.

    If only there were a way to see earlier posts in the thread and figure out exactly who that was!

  46. Robert, you are seriously deluded if you think the positional difference overcomes Barry Bonds defensive ability in his age 26 season. But I am willing to be humbled – break out the positional difference and show me my laughable error. If it’s that large, it shouldn’t take you long.

  47. @54–Parr is on DL and hasn’t pitched since May; you’d probably get Redmond as the cannon fodder

  48. #70 – Whatever, if you can’t understand the adjustments you need to make to a players value as you move across the defensive spectrum, I’m not going to bother with it. There’s plenty out there to read about it.

    Aside – I don’t really like WAR as a stat, but I find it funny for that season that #2 to Bonds in WAR was Tom Glavine not Pendleton. TP’s WAR value gets depressed by a strong crop of NL 3B that season (HoJo, Sabo, half a Bonilla)

  49. #73 – The various problems in pinning down replacement level make me distrust WAR. That’s the short answer.

    #74 – The idea that you need to do something to truly compare the contributions of LF and 3B is not a handwaving assertion. It’s standard practice.

  50. The single biggest reason that the Braves went from worst to first was Terry Pendleton; offense, defense, and leadership, and if you don’t think leadership exists I feel sorry for you. Meanwhile, the biggest reason that Tom Glavine became Tom Glavine that year was the improved defense, and in particular at third base. You have three lefthanded pitchers in a four-man rotation, you go from last in the league to third in ERA, you think adding the best defensive third baseman in the league (I don’t care who won the Gold Glove, TP was the best) might have had something to do with it?

  51. It’s a PeachTree TV game? Really, I’m blacked out from the good announcers? I couldn’t get blacked out from the Chip games?

  52. I buy the defensive argument.

    B-Ref gives Bonds a +18 Rfield Vs. +7 RField for TP. And the positional adjustment makes them equal (according to Bref -7 for Bonds Vs. +1 TP). I don’t buy that. I don’t think they were equal defenders.

    Even so…. It is hard to justify the difference with the bat (TP 31 Vs. Bonds 44) and the baserunning.

    It isn’t laughable either way.

  53. if you don’t think leadership exists I feel sorry for you

    Where exactly did I say that? I simply asked how you value this quality and how you determined that it was enough to supersede Bonds quantifiable lead in virtually every other area.

    #74 – The idea that you need to do something to truly compare the contributions of LF and 3B is not a handwaving assertion. It’s standard practice.

    More bluster. Dismissed.

  54. Interestingly, neither was an All Star that season. I wonder how often that has happened (top two MVP vote getters not on the team).

  55. The Braves players, at the time, were pretty vocal about TP’s leadership qualities. And I don’t recall anyone, ever, saying a kind word about Barry Bonds’.

  56. More bluster. Dismissed.

    Follow some of the links in #87 and educate yourself. This is ridiculous.

    Edit: I guess I should say for the record that I think Bonds should have won. But in a ranking worst MVP votes this one isn’t in the Top 100. The voters made a reasonable choice. I only waded in here because the idea of giving Bonds points over a TP for defense is so silly it demanded a response. The winning argument for Bonds is that he was so much better on offense that it overcomes TP’s advantage in many other areas (defense, leadership, etc.)

  57. @88, you just won’t take yes for an answer, will you? I agree, as I said from the start, that TP played a key role in the teams success. If your answer is “well I just FEEL like TP was the MVP” that’s fine – I can ‘t really engage that, but I wouldn’t hold it against you and we can let it go. But I don’t think asking for some idea of why you think this quality overcomes the other data points is unreasonable. How are you valuing this quality? What is it worth on in the standings or on the field? Who else in the league exhibited these qualities, and to what extent are you giving others credit?

  58. So, when I read the grumbling about AGony hitting third, I assumed we were facing a lefty. Seriously, why IN THE WORLD would he bat third against a righty?

  59. @89, Apparently it was an education you needed – how kind of you to let others find the data for you. And now I will let you examine these adjustments and do the math, and show me how this all totals up to “silliness”. Because by my math, Bonds ends up ahead, even allowing a generic -7/+1 split. Even going with Tango’s more generous -7.5/+2,5, Bonds is ahead. So go on – make me humble.

    I don’t mind engaging on these topics, but when I hear ad homs like “laughable” and “silliness”, I expect there to be some meat behind it. If something is based just on how you view the sport, I can live with that. But dismissiveness merits evidence, my friend.

    /Sorry Robert, missed your edit

  60. I just got done reading that article on the McCourts. My question is how to you get that psychic healer job? I sit here at my computer thinking good thoughts about the Braves everyday, I would love to get paid for it!

  61. What is win difference between Chipper & Brooks. Chipper gets the walks because he get pitched around, but OPS is same and Brooks is at least as good on D. Chipper has been hot lately and depth is hurt, yes. It depends more on how well everyone else hits. We need some to step up.

  62. @105 Ok, just making sure, ha. The Braves went from last to first that season after a decade of @&^#$%. MVP is more than just numbers as we all know. The Braves were a great story that season and it’s not harsh to give the Braves’ bast player that season the MVP award.

  63. Something we can all agree on – how the heck does Brad Ausmus have an 18 year career, the overwhelming majority as a starter?

  64. Hessman’s in the right town. Mets fans will irrationally and illogically fall in love with players who hardly deserve it. See 2009, Omir Santos.

  65. So … the Hessman homer was overturned? And Frenchy struck out? Is that what I’m understanding?

  66. Hudson should just randomly slug someone on the bench between every inning they don’t score in.

  67. Awesome trivia question, and I’m blanking on it.

    Name the 5 guys named Jason to play for the Atlanta Braves.

    I’ve got Heyward and Shiell…

  68. I checked with Vegas ..
    the over/under for groundballs hit to ss/3b by Glaus for this series is set at 6.5

  69. 128- Agreed. Chipper can probably punch harder, and we don’t want Hudson to hurt his hand hitting the concrete in Melky’s head.

  70. K-Rud bailed yesterday but the Mutts placed him on the restricted list for two days with no pay, costing him around $130,000 in lost salary. He’s to be activated of the RL tomorrow.

  71. IF the Braves actually win this division, why wouldn’t Hudson win Cy Young? Jiminez and Johnson are faltering. He’s been lights out.

  72. I was pretty sure that was going to be caught at the wall, but I think Brooks just willed it out.

  73. If it wasn’t for the regular spaz attacks whenever we try anything on the infield, I would have said throw out the hitter then come back for the runner.

  74. Chief, because Adam Wainwright is also on a winning team and having an even better season.

  75. mac, do you know who is the cyborg hanson twitter account? that is pure gold. its my favorite twitter account that i follow for sure…it’s fabulous

  76. Wagner looks like he’s going to be on to work the ninth. 91 pitches for Huddy. Bad move, in my opinion.

  77. 91 pitches for Huddy. Bad move, in my opinion.

    Yeah. This one is on Cox if Wagner blows it.

    When was the Braves’ last 9-inning complete game?

  78. Why on earth is Hudson not finishing this game, especially with Wagner’s shakiness of late? 91 pitches…seriously?

  79. I think I see why Wagner’s in — 2 of the 3 guys due up for LA hit left-handed, and the 4th guy also.

  80. Wow. I thought all these pickoff throws would inevitably end with Podsednik on third base.

  81. Not only did we not have an error that game, we took the tying run off the bases in the ninth! This bodes well…

  82. There has to be a better showing tomorrow. I don’t think you can anticipate a similar performance from Lowe.

  83. Freeman’s earned a September call-up at the least, that’s for damn sure.

    edit: forgot he’s not on the 40-man

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