Nats 5, Braves 3

Atlanta Braves vs. Washington Nationals – Box Score – July 29, 2010 – ESPN.

I am tired of Derek Lowe, and yet, I get to watch him for two more entire seasons. Can’t we trade him to Houston or Arizona or somebody? Lowe, who does not know how to win, didn’t even wait until he sixth inning to collapse today, giving up two runs in the second and two more in the fourth. He has an unerring instinct for maximizing damage, as he only allowed seven baserunners (five hits, a walk, a HBP) and yet more than half of them scored.

The Braves’ offense came mostly from Matt Diaz, who hit a two-run homer in the fourth (scoring Troy Glaus and tying the game) and scored on an Omar Infante single in the sixth, which cut the lead to 4-3. However, he grounded into a double play in the eighth, and that pretty much marked the end of the game, cemented by an Adam Dunn homer in the bottom of the inning off of Takashi Saito.

If Melky Cabrera had done anything it might have been a different game, as the 4-7 hitters had all six of the Braves hits, but all Melky produced in the eighth spot was an intentional walk. Then again, the 1-3 hitters didn’t do squat either except for a two-out walk by Jason Heyward. I just like attacking Melky.

197 thoughts on “Nats 5, Braves 3”

  1. id give Diaz/infante cf right now if it means we can add someone. If we cant touch Bautista, Livan, and Olsen I cant wait for Halladay/Oswalt/Hamels or Carpenter/Wainright/Garcia

  2. Not good as we had Hanson, Hudson and Lowe going against Was with no Strasburg and lost 2 of 3. CIN should be Medlen vs. Cueto, Jurrjens vs. Arroyo and Hanson vs. Volquez. Then Santana vs. Husdson, Dickey vs. Lowe and Pelfrey vs. Medlen if everything holds to form against NYM. No gimmies in there, but we always seem to blow the gimmies anyway so maybe it’s a good thing.

  3. The Braves are like a half naked blonde in first couple of scenes of a bad slasher movie, and the Phillies are the killer with a huge knife, ready to strike.

    We can scream as much as we want, help is not coming.

  4. Damn, stupup – thought I was pessimistic.
    —————–

    If there weren’t already five million reasons to hate Finebaum, today he called for the SEC to kick Vandy out of the conference.

  5. Well I bought tickets to tomorrow’s game over a month ago, so I guess I have to go even though I’m not feeling too good after watching this last week.

    I’m hoping Medlen can keep the ball down in that joke of a stadium along the banks of the Ohio. I really don’t like losing to the Reds.

  6. Hey Stu, Berkman is available now and OPSing 925 in july

    too bad he cant play a corner OF anymore

  7. What’s funny is how confident the Nationals were after last night’s game, knowing they would be facing Lowe today. And of course they were right.

    Give up somebody to get a bat. Granted the steroids era is supposedly dead, but this dead ball era offense is depressing. No speed. No power. The offense looks old.

  8. Here we are less than 48 hours before the trade deadline. We have one of the best farm systems in baseball and a ton of what everyone wants (pitching prospects). We’re in first place and have a fairly good chance at making the post season, but we could stand to add a starter, middle of the order hitter, and reliever. We’re not going to get any of it because our ownership group is so damn cheap. Instead we’ll trade our starting SS for a worse SS and two prospects, call it an upgrade, and hope for the best.

    Depression is a disease, but I think this is how it starts.

  9. So Berkman can’t play LF huh?

    If he could fake it out there, I think he would make us better.

  10. I think I know what happened. According to an article in The Atlantic magazine, Derek Lowe is “a pharmaceutical researcher who also writes about the industry.” Somehow he ended up pitching for the Braves. Is it possible that the pitcher is now a researcher? Maybe Lowe is pitching poorly because he really wants to do pharmaceutical research.

  11. Berkman, incidentally, has enormous home-road splits this season, and they’ve been a bit less pronounced though present for the past couple years. I don’t trust him outside of Houston.

    What about Hawpe? He could be available for a rental. His splits this year are also extreme but historically they haven’t been.

  12. Actually Berkman has been terrible against lefties this year… Like… Terrible. .188/.278/.281 for a .559 OPS.

  13. There was a young man named Jeff / With hitting the opposite of deft / The Mets couldn’t trade / Not even with Ed Wade / And the fans all prayed for his death

  14. I miss the Braves Journal Dog House. I think it’s roomy enough for Lowe and Melky.

  15. Yet, if the Braves do make the playoffs, I would bet the mortgage that Lowe will pitch. After all, he’s a “veteran who has been there before and knows how to win” (except when he doesn’t).

    I have more confidence in Kawakami than in Lowe. It’s pure luck that Kawakami is 1-9 and Lowe is whatever he is. And, in fact, Lowe is finding ways to lose rather than win. I wonder if guys like Lowe feel guilty making all that money and being so bad. I guess not. Anyway, we know what Bobby’s meme will be–“he pitched fine, just a couple of bad pitches in a couple of innings. He’ll be ok.”

    At the same time, six runs in three games against the Nats, with Strasburg not even pitching, won’t do it.

    It’s funny how sweet things felt a week ago and how bad they feel now. Ah, the cycles of baseball.

  16. Its really simple: Make a move to upgrade the offense, or the Phillies are going to win the NL East.

    I mean it is just so obvious. Spend some money you freaking hotel porn installers.

  17. @30
    i dont know if you’re an acquired taste, but i’ve been liking your comments lately, chief. keep up the bashing!

  18. #16 Whats so absurd about it? If you have the two best hitters on the market you ask high.

  19. Hotel porn isn’t even good porn. It’s like.. the worst porn there is.

    RE: Berkman.

    If we’re going to get him and throw him in LF, just get Dunn and do the same. I’d be fine dealing anybody not named Terehan, Delgado, or Freeman for him. I’d think Rizzo would have to take a deal centered around Minor. Another quality SP they can control for a while to add to Strasburg and Zimmerman, which is just what they need, imo.

  20. @34 I’ll try thinking some up. Though i suppose you don’t have to create insults of Jeff, they simply are there, hovering in reality, merely waiting for someone to pluck them out and share them.

  21. The Mets are batting Francoeur further down the order than Mike Hessman. That’s a pretty good insult.

    Let’s not forget that the clubhouse cancer was putting up Tom Veryzer numbers.

    The cancer thing makes sense since this team hits like they are going through chemotherapy.

  22. With all due respect…..in regards to Berkman, the Braves do not need another slug on the bases unless he can crush 40 bombs like Dunn. A single by Chipper, McCann, Glaus, Hinske, and Cabrera is basically useless.

  23. #35, 37
    One time I was on a business trip in Austin with a work colleague & we went out & did some bar/club hopping.

    We were staying in the same room and when we got back to the hotel, he was fishing around the hotel smut channel with the remote.

    I said, “Hey, man, this is kinda, y’know, uncomfy. What are you doing?”

    He said, “Oh, don’t worry, this is really old, funny porn. It’s ‘Deep Throat.’ You’ll laugh your ass off.”

    Was he ever wrong. The film was so edited & chopped for hotel viewing that it was probably legal in all 50 states, plus China & Saudi Arabia. Hardly porn, it was just a buncha bad one-liners & funny hair.

    Nonetheless, I hope we did our part to contribute to the ballclub.

  24. #41 – Yeah I don’t have much faith that our “problems” can be fixed. The biggest problem is that Chipper and Glaus are too gimpy to hit like the 3-4 hitters we need them to hit like. They continue to play, so they probably won’t get any better physically. They are not cover-your-eyes terrible so they won’t be replaced. All those guys can offer are walks and singles which pretty much dooms us to having a middle of the road offense.

  25. While I disagree with your estimate of Chipper’s productivity, I agree that mediocrity can be a problem, as it’s a lot easier, and more obvious, to upgrade a poor producer than a mediocre one. Unfortunately, the only really bad spot in the lineup is center, where there’s really nothing to be done other than hoping Blanco can provide a spark when he comes eligible in a couple days.

  26. While I disagree with your estimate of Chipper’s productivity

    Yeah, not to say Chipper is a bad player. His OBP is obviously more than healthy but a corner infielder hitting in the middle of the lineup (not to mention chewing up a good portion of the team budget) really needs to break .400 on his slugging percentage. And Glaus is turning into the same kind of player on the other side of the diamond. You can’t really have two, somebody has to hit the ball out of the ballpark now and then.

  27. I like the horror movie analogy. I’m guessing sometime next week the Braves will hear a noise outside and go alone to investigate.

  28. So the Nats were looking at 3 way deals to land Edwin Jackson. Seeing what the d’bags gave Haren away for, that might be an in on acquiring Dunn or willingham.

    Still think cf is the biggest problem, and still like marlon byrd

  29. On the other hand, you had to expect the team to struggle at some point especially on the road. Unfortunately it corresponded to the Phillies getting hot. A week ago they looked dead. Do the Braves need help? Absolutely but really it’s more the Phillies than the Braves. I mean they are still in first place.But I agree with the comments above that the real problem is at the infield corners.

  30. Melky’s definitely the interim BJWB, but I’m hoping he gets sent to the bench when Blanco arrives. As a fourth OF/platoon CF he wouldn’t be prominent enough for Whipping Boy status.

  31. Gotta love Ruben Amaro making his club older and more expensive trying to maintain a “dynasty.”

  32. I’d like to thank Ryan Madson and JC Romero for blowing the Phillies’ lead; it’s now 2-2 with two D’Backs on and one out in the 9th.

    Edit: now bases loaded, one out.

  33. I think he is the guy who hit the inside the park homerun when Jason and Nate collided

  34. Can’t believe the Nats are getting Ramos from the Twins in exchange for Capps. That certainly won’t discourage them for asking too much for Willingham and Dunn.

  35. @59
    the latest i’ve seen is nothing imminent and that we’re also interesting in capps. are the braves and the nats in discussion for a monster trade? for this year, i sure do hope so. for the future, i’m not so sure.

  36. well it appears 4 teams are in on Capps and the Braves are one of them. Most think that the Twins are leading

  37. Liberty Media. You suck big fat donkey balls.

    Bud Selig. Your mother is a big fat donkey.

    Derek Lowe. You have a terrific agent and incredible timing.

  38. Not ONE article even mentions the Braves as ‘buyers’. Disgusting. So sick of this bullshane.

  39. so is Ramos the best prospect getting moved so far? he by himself may beat the Haren and Oswalt packages

  40. Why would the Braves be in on Capps? Yeah we could use a RHRP, but it’s the last thing we should be spending top prospects on.

    Please don’t be this stupid, Wren.

  41. The Twins must have thought that Ramos was useless to them with Mauer and his deal, I guess. That’s the only way I can see the Nats pulling that off.

    Hopefully they realize that isn’t the case with everyone else.

  42. David Ross On Braves’ reaction to Oswalt trade: (makes a great point)

    “I don’t know if we had much of a reaction. When the rumors go around you convince yourself the team that’s chasing you is going to get the best player. I guess they’re a little better, but (Shane) Victorino is out and he’s a big part of their team. Jaime Moyer threw a complete game shutout against us. I’m not saying we’re excited to face Roy Oswalt, but I also know that soft-throwing lefties give us trouble. Two of theirs are gone. J.A. Happ is not going to be around and Moyer is not. So who knows?”

  43. He won’t just face us, but the Braves have always hit Oswalt well. Career, he’s 0-3 with a 7.53 ERA (7 starts). Though he’s pitched well in Citizens’ Bandbox — 4-0, 2.60.

  44. Soft throwing lefties, hard throwing righties.. Who isn’t giving them trouble lately?

  45. I’ve resigned to the fact that I will never know when the Braves are about to make a big deal. It seems like when we’re hearing about stuff, it falls through (Griffey, Furcal, Peavy). When something happens, it seems like it comes out of nowhere (Drew, Sheffield, Escobar). So, I just hold my breath until Saturday at 4PM and hope we get what we need. It could be Dunn, Willingham, or someone we’ve never even heard about or thought of. The Braves are shifty like that.

  46. Heyman says Dunn’s price is high, but not “ridiculous.” I know a lot of people have reservations about him in LF and he can’t play 1B with Freeman waiting to take over there, but what does everyone think it would take to get him?

  47. I would hate to trade any pitching prospects to the Nats, but I think that’s what needed to get Dunn.

  48. Well I was thinking long term about not being able to start at 1B. He could start there this year, but do we just let him go in the off season?

    Are there really any LFers who are offensive AND defensive studs?

    And honestly, the only reason i’m even hopeful about Dunn is because the Braves haven’t Bern mentioned in connection to him.

  49. I think realistically, we might get someone like Kearns. He’s not making any money and everyone else we are talking about is making too much money for Liberty. Plus I don’t think Kearns will cost that much in terms of prospects.

  50. Ramos can’t hit. At all.

    Good trade for the Nationals, they just secured a good catch/throw guy who can back up Flores or Norris on the cheap for a few years. But I wouldn’t be sweating too much over losing Ramos if I were a Twins fan.

    The Pirates are the dummies here.

  51. @81

    I was at the Gwinnett game the other night when they were playing the Louisville Bats, which had Corky Miller on the team. In that game, he hit a scorching line-drive home run to straightaway center that went screaming right past the CF cameraman’s head. It must have gone at least 420 feet, probably more, and got out of the park to CF in about a second-and-a-half. After recovering from my stroke, which must have taken at least 30 minutes, I deduced that it was 20 times harder than I had ever seen Corky hit a ball before.

  52. I live and work in Reds country. I’m wearing my Braves jersey at work today. Backed my car into the “reserved” space with the Braves license plate showing up front. Going to Great American Bandbox tonight and Sunday wearing a Killer Tomato jersey.
    Just showing the colors.

    Go Braves!

  53. Serious question:

    At the beginning of the year, I thought Glaus was done. Couldn’t catch up to the fastball and certainly wasn’t great defensively.

    Then, it looked like everything clicked and for a while there he was a legit MVP candidate. Then he fell completely back into the torpor that was his April.

    It reminded me of that movie with (I think) Robin WIlliams and Pacino where they find a way to make him smart and then it fades. (Or is that “Flowers for Algernon”?)

    Anyway, my question is:

    How can that happen? It’s not just a slump. It’s like a manic/depressive episode. I just don’t get it.

  54. 96,
    All about injuries IMO. His knees are bothering him. If we had a real LF’er, we could give him a day off or two (w/ Hinske playing 1B).

  55. Justhank, that movie’s called Awakenings.

    And it was DeNiro and Robin Williams.

  56. IDK about the movie, but that is definitely the basic story of Flowers for Algernon.

  57. I dont understand why Diaz doesnt just play LF everyday for a while and put Glaus on the 15 day DL.
    You can put Hinske at 1B against righties and then Prado against lefties and put Omar at 2B.

    The way Glaus is swinging he is basically useless so we have nothing to lose.

  58. @100, Exactly, and no one is making that point.

    DLing Glaus and using Hinske/calling up Freeman/Canizares/whomever else is not about a prospect being ready to step in. It’s about giving Glaus the rest he badly needs in order to be productive. And while whoever stands in may not be ready, just try to make sure it’s not appreciably worse than the .176/.412/.235 we got from Glaus in the last 10 games.

    We need to get him back on his feet, pronto.

  59. i had thought the plan all along was to give Glaus 4 or 5 months and then bring up Freddie.

  60. People are getting a little carried away about the Braves hitting. The scored 16 runs against the best staff in the league, San Diego, and scored 20 against the marlins. That’s 36 runs in six games but they only won three because of the pitching and defense. Yes, they struggled against the Nats, but they always do that in DC. Clearly, the Braves need offensive help–Glaus has pretty much become a slug–but the offense really hasn’t been the big problem, although the inability to get runners in from third has obviously hurt.

    When you think about it, the Braves do two things well-pitch and get on base. They have no power or speed and their defense is mediocre at best. (Watching Melky play centerfield on Wednesday night from near the Braves bullpen was really eye-opening. He reminded me of the old recruitment slogan for the Army–“it’s not just a job, it’s an adventure.” He takes terrible routes to the ball-on one play, he turned the wrong way and just barely managed to turn back in time to catch the ball–and he even seemed shaky standing under fly balls.) They are sort of a test case for the notion that on-base percentage is the most important offensive skill.

    At the same time, the Braves are 5-5 in their last 10. That’s not great, but it’s hardly a collapse–you would expect some cooling off. The problem is the damn Phillies got hot and are playing bad teams–Arizona is horrible on the road. Maybe the Nats can cool them off some, although it will probably be Philadelphia south here this weekend.

  61. Troy Glaus has always been like this. He’s always been as streaky as, say, Kelly Johnson. So you get things like his April, where people were ready to cut him, followed by his May and June, where people were ready to extend him for four years, followed by his July, where people are ready to bury him alive. He’s obviously hurt (which itself isn’t terribly shocking) but odds are he’ll sort it out again and post something useful in August.

    The Phillies are making their run. They’re a good team who improved themselves with trade, and they are certainly capable of retaking the division. Nonetheless, they are still 3 games back.

  62. #106 and #107 – good perspective. Glaus is streaky. We’ll be ok if he can just get warm not even hot. DL him? Bring up Freeman? Hey, lets panic. I’m glad the Braves let him work through his April funk becuase we wouldn’t be in first place without his excellent May and June.

    Marc, if we have to do only one thing well I’m ok with the high OBP. We have all seen teams that emphasis pitching with less hitting than this version of the Braves go all the way.

  63. It’s not panic. The difference between now and then is that Glaus is hurt now and he wasn’t then.

    He says his ankles and knees aren’t affecting his hitting…yeah, just like with Schafer and Heyward. Let’s let this fester until there’s no time to solve the problem.

    Even if they give Glaus another cortisone shot and keep him out for this series, it’d be better than nothing.

  64. I’m not against giving Glaus some time to heal, and certainly if the team decides that he needs to be DL’d they should (and will) DL him. What I find a bit much to take is the idea that random fans on the internet have better insight into whether or not Glaus needs to be DL’d than does the team itself. Unless you’re in the training room or reading the MRIs I’ll assume the team knows better.

    Troy Glaus is injury prone. Troy Glaus is streaky. If he could fix those two things he’d be a HOFer. He’s never shown the ability to fix those two things, which is why he tends to end any given year with an OPS+ around 850 rather than 1000. Which is also why he was available for 1.5 guaranteed plus playing time incentives this year.

  65. I agree with Mac re Dunn if he is available. Let Glaus sit; they did it with Kawakami. Glaus has had one good month. Dunn is much better anyway, even if he is lefthanded. Freeman isn’t ready; bringing him up now would truly be panicking, a la Jeff Francouer in 2005. I doubt, even when he was hot, that people were sitting up worrying about pitching to Troy Glaus. They do with Adam Dunn. Not that I expect it to happen.

    Johnny,

    I agree with you in general; what bothers me, in a way, after seeing the team in person twice this week, is the poor defense. This is not a very athletic team other than Heyward.

  66. Marc Schneider aptly points out that the Braves lack power, speed and plus defense – especially in CF.

    Well, I can’t fix the power issue, but I can solve the other two – PUT BLANCO IN CENTER FIELD UNTIL WE HAVE A BETTER OPTION.

    No, he’s not a young, sober Mickey Mantle but he’s the best we got right now and he adds a winning dimension to this team.

    It’s all about critical mass. Do we have a sufficient combination of the elements that make up a club capable of winning the Division or not? Blanco adds to that mass. Melky and (especially) McLouth do not.

  67. But Sam, streaky is one thing. I don’t think I’ve ever seen someone with such pronounced extremes.

    I really hope he and the Braves can figure it out, because when he’s good, it’s hard to beat the Braves.

  68. To get Dunn or Willingham, assuming trading Teheran is verbotten, we will have to part with one or two of Delgado, Minor, Vizcaino, Freeman maybe even Medlen. Worth it?

    Glaus has had 2 good months.

    I agree, play Blanco. At least he gets on base and fields his position.

  69. I’m not great about understanding the run/win value of defensive metrics.

    Say we get Dunn. Considering the offensive boost and defensive downgrade, would it really be a bad idea to start Glaus at short?

    He’s played there in the majors. How bad can he be? Bad enough to make up for the gigantic drop in offense between him and AAG?

  70. 116—No way it’s worth two of those guys. Absolutely no way.

    117—I can’t imagine that would help his knees.

  71. If we can get Dunn, we would be stupid not to. I’ll go get Minor and Delgatto and take them to the airport.

  72. @111, The month-long cry to the gods from this blog during Heyward’s slump suggests it’s possible we can be right and the team can be wrong. Especially when it comes to players masking injuries. I feel like those situations can be relatively easy to read. I’d be happy to be wrong.

    Again, *temporarily* bringing up Canizares or Freeman would be done merely to give Glaus a short breather, so we can be more likely to get another May out of him. Nobody should expect much from either potential call-up.

    Not that I expect it to happen.

    @113, Watch him get Edwin Jackson and flip him for Adam Dunn.

  73. 120—That is so foolish. 2 months of Dunn for two of the top 10 or so pitching prospects in the minor leagues, both of whom will be major-league ready within the next year? Insane.

    121—Apparently, that’s exactly what he’s trying to do, but that’s on hold because he’s trying something even bigger.

  74. would it help if glaus had a procedure to remove his ankles and knees? from my point of view, it will fix the problem.

  75. @114,

    Agree. If Melky could hit, that would be one thing. But you aren’t gaining much, if any, offense and the gain on defense with Blanco has to be substantial. I was sort of stunned to see how bad Melky is out there. Frankly, I would take an old, drunk Mickey Mantle over Melky.

  76. Does anyone think that Minor is close enough to ML ready to highlight a deal for Dunn? Because that’s apparently what the Nats want. KW is trying to acquire Jackson to send to the Nats for Dunn, and I’m not sure about losing JJ or Medlen for a guy we may not keep in the offseason (although I’d hope we would).

  77. If we’re giving up Minor or Delgado (or Medlen), I was really hoping for a package deal, like Capps and Willingham.

  78. crazy stupid trade scenario:
    if the cubs were willing, would you do this trade?
    soriano for kawakami, mclouth, and lowe?

    nevermind…this is stupid. lol

  79. ryan, not a chance. We’ll rid ourselves of all these guys by 2012. After that youd still be paying Soriano $18m in 2013 and 2014

  80. I don’t think Minor alone is worth that sort of deal. I was thinking something like Minor + a 11-20 guy + a 30+ guy.

    Say Minor + Hoover + Johnson. They might want Johnson on the off chance that he stops making Reynolds look like a picture of plate discipline.

  81. As of now, I would rather we deal Delgado than Minor purely because we don’t have much lefthanded starting pitching talents in the minor right now…and seems like Minor is much better than what we originally thought he would be.

  82. I seriously doubt the Braves are even asking about Dunn. In the larger scheme of the organization’s plan, he doesn’t really fit.* He doesn’t play the OF any more. I guess you could try to shoehorn him back into LF, but that would look about as good as moving Chipper back to SS (or, dear god, did someone seriously suggest Troy Glaus at SS?!)

    The Braves are looking for someone who can improve their shortterm production in CF (Willingham potentially allows them to move Heyward to CF) without upending the long term rebuilding project.

    Right now I’d put the odds of acquisitions something like:

    Getting Josh Willingham – 10%
    Getting another OF/CF – 10% (Jim Edmonds, perhaps)
    Getting Adam Dunn – 0.5%
    Standing pat/getting nothing – 79.5%

    *Yes, I know how good he is offensively. Yes, I know he would improve the offense. But he’s a 1B/DH and that’s not what Atlanta is looking for.

  83. I think the odds of standing pat are pretty low, actually. I just think the odds of getting something meaningful is also pretty low, unfortunately.

  84. @135 The chance of Wren overpaying in trade market is extremely high though. I think Wren is good in constructing a competitive team, but he tends to overpay to get what he wants. We will see if that’s the case again.

  85. And unless we get a huge return, no way should we trade Minor.

    This team has needed a very good lefty starter for awhile now and Minor just may be that guy.

  86. @138
    my post was word vomit. i realized the stupidity right after i typed it. i’m just wondering if wren is looking into overpaid veterans to get rid of some of our own.

  87. I would at least hope that the people who want to unload high calibre prospects for two months of Adam Dunn are intellectually honest enough to not complain about the Mark Tiexiera deal.

  88. I’d rather put the best pitchers on the field, and I don’t think Minor is better than Delgado.

    If the Braves are just looking for offensive shortterm production, then Dunn can take 1B from Glaus, who switches out at 3B with Chipper. Regardless of how highly you may regard the Braves training staff (and looking at Heyward and Schafer I’m not sure how highly you CAN regard them), it’s obvious that Glaus could use some rest, and we all know that Chipper could use one day of rest for every day of play.

    @141

    I would hope that the people who never want to trade prospects for anyone, regardless of depth or need, are intellectually honest enough to not complain about always being almost good enough.

  89. @141 Exactly.

    @140 You got me into thinking about unloading Lowe again…I am dreaming!!! I think Strasburg needs a mentor in Derek “Winner” Lowe.

  90. I don’t think Minor alone is worth that sort of deal. I was thinking something like Minor + a 11-20 guy + a 30+ guy.

    Say Minor + Hoover + Johnson. They might want Johnson on the off chance that he stops making Reynolds look like a picture of plate discipline.

    Assuming you were referring to my post about Minor for Capps and Willingham, I agree. There would of course have to be other prospects included; I just don’t think (m)any of these rumored deals are worth one of Teheran, Minor, Delgado, Freeman, etc., much less two of them.

  91. And the Angels gave up basically nothing for Tex. Rizzo is either posturing or insane.

  92. I don’t think anybody outside of Ryan Braun is worth two of those guys, but I think Dunn is worth one of those guys plus some worse guys (as long as one of those guys isn’t Teheran, Delgado, Freeman, or Medlen.)

    But what else are you going to do with 5+ SP prospects when you already have three that are controlled for years already in the majors? Especially when you’re struggling for consistent offense.

    It’s not like we’re dealing our one position prospect for a two month rental like we did with Andrus in the Tex deal. It’s not like we’re hurting for pitching prospects and we’d be destroying our minor league pitching depth by dealing ONE of those top prospects.

  93. Peter’s blog (capitolavenueclub.com) has some great points about his trade deadline preferences. The money quote to me:

    “If the Braves did acquire Willingham, you’d probably see Heyward get some time off vs. LHP with Diaz playing and Troy Glaus get more time off with Hinske playing 1B. Willingham is basically the perfect option for the offense, in that it both significantly upgrades it now and in 2011, but also gives you even more depth, rather than sapping it.”

    I agree with this. Facing Cole Hamels with Willingham and Diaz at the corners, and Heyward and Hinske on your bench for the late innings sounds nice.

    I’d like a righthanded CF too…

  94. But what else are you going to do with 5+ SP prospects when you already have three that are controlled for years already in the majors? Especially when you’re struggling for consistent offense.

    Save them for better trades. Maybe in the offseason. We can probably afford the loss, because of our incredible depth, but that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t maximize the return. I don’t think 2 months of Dunn would be maximizing the return.

  95. sucks to know that if Wren doesnt do something the Sillies will be be in 1st by Wednesday. he’s going to do something, right? RIGHT?

  96. sucks to know that if Wren doesnt do something the Sillies will be be in 1st by Wednesday. he’s going to do something, right? RIGHT?

    Have you ever watched a baseball season in its entirity?

  97. bottom line is this team is 15 games above .500 and leading their division. They are probably still good enough to win the division or the wildcard. Phills are good, but they are suppose to be. Hell they double our payroll

  98. ‘That is so foolish. 2 months of Dunn for two of the top 10 or so pitching prospects in the minor leagues, both of whom will be major-league ready within the next year? Insane.’

    Out of Minor, Delgado, Teheran, Vizcaino we’ll be lucky if one makes the show. TNSTAAPP.

    Remember none of them has played above AA. That being said I agree. Not for Dunn. But for Willingham you have to be at least tempted.

    OOPs isn’t Minor in Gwinnette now?

  99. DOB – #Braves’ Wren says still looking: “Have had lots of conversations, but there are limited players available at this time that fit our needs.”

  100. Minor has been tearing up AAA for a while now. He alone should be enough for either player IMO

  101. Surprising but good news on Venters’ suspension being revoked. I thought they would cut it to 2 days at best. This requires them to admit they were wrong.

  102. next 8 days (i think this is right)

    Cueto
    Volquez
    Arroyo
    Pelfrey
    Santana
    Dickey
    Zito
    Lincecum

  103. @157

    If Wren’s being honest–big IF–I read that as, “We’re standing pat.” The trade deadline is the same every year–kinda fun, but very nerve-wracking. It has me wondering why I devote so much mental energy to something over which I have no control.

    @161

    That is a brutal schedule. Hope the Braves aren’t three games back after facing all those guys.

  104. something on espn about Wren saying the Braves are looking for bullpen help.

    What?

    Bring up Marek. Let KK pitch garbage time. Send chavez down.

    If Venters, Saito, Moylan, and Wagner don’t break down and if O’Flaherty, KK, Dunn, Marek, Kimbrel, Chavez, and maybe Beachy or Minor are sitting behind them, I DO NOT understand looking for relief pitching.

    I am not against picking up a cheap Beimel or Ohman ortheir right handed equivalent, but it isn’t where the resources are needed.

    Agreed with P. W. that of almost any plausibly possible player in MLB for pick up, that Willingham best fits our needs. Dunn is “wrong handed”, defensively worthless (not as good at first as Glaus and if he plays there, then you don’thave Glaus, and way worse than anybody we have tried this year in left).

    Berkman MIGHT make sense if I thought he could still play left (he wa sctually at one time a pretty good outfielder, unlike Dunn), but with those knees, not too sure.

  105. I have no problem with us getting a RH relief pitcher. Chavez is just filling out a roster space at this point and I still don’t think Moylan or Saito are fully healthy/right. I agree that Willingham makes the most sense of everyone I’ve heard, but I think Wren’s low key approach is good. My guess is we’ll get a relief pitcher and we’ll get either Willingham or Austin Kearns. I’m afraid that Kearns wouldn’t be the upgrade we’re looking for and it would be better to stand pat.

  106. I don’t think “wrong handedness” really matters when talking about someone like Dunn. It’s not like he’s a platoon candidate out there, and his offense more than makes up for however much worse he is than Glaus at 1B, and Glaus and Chipper could go on an “achy legs” platoon at 3B which should be good for both of them, especially if we really are playing for the postseason.

  107. It really gets down to how much you want to go for it this year. This is different from the Tex situation, where the Braves were behind and trying to make up ground. Would Dunn be enough to put the team over the top and make a run in October? If so, I think you have to go for it–who knows what the team will look like next year? Obviously, though, there has to be some limit. I’m increasingly thinking the Nats will deal Dunn because they aren’t going to want to give him the deal he wants. So, I think Rizzo’s price will go down; it certainly doesn’t hurt him to start high and see who might deal. Dunn doesn’t want to be a DH but I’m not sure if he could veto a trade to the AL. Willingham is a solid player and would help but, seeing him play every night, I’m not sure he is the impact player some think he is. But, as someone noted, if they got Willingham, they could platoon Heyward against some lefties and get Diaz’s bat in there. Diaz just kills lefties.

    Let’s face it, the Braves need Jason Heyward to get hot and start driving the ball again. It’s a lot to put on a 20 year old but he is really the only guy that you could expect to go ballistic as he did early in the year. Right now, he is a solid piece but they need more than that.

    I’m not sure Wren’s statement can be interpreted as they are standing pat, but he is certainly preparing people in case nothing gets done. But, remember, the trade deadline isn’t really the trade deadline because lots of things get done after July 31.

  108. “Out of Minor, Delgado, Teheran, Vizcaino we’ll be lucky if one makes the show. TNSTAAPP.”

    This is absurd. Minor could be starting in the majors for a lot of teams right now. We’d have to be insanely unlucky for him to never “make the show”. As for the others, Delgado’s FB is a really good pitch, and Teheran’s stuff is all-around good, plus he’s like 19. I would be surprised if either one of them failed to get at least a look at the majors in a bullpen roll. Vizcaino’s a question mark due to the surgery, and we likely won’t see him moved for this alone. His stuff is up there with the other two, but due to the surgery, it wouldn’t be shocking for him to not make it. Anyhow, worst-case, I think 2 of them will get a shot in the and that’s with some horrible injuryy luck. If we “get lucky”? Well, “lucky” would be two or three rotation fixtures plus maybe a good arm in the ‘pen.

  109. FWIW, I’d much rather trade for Willingham than Dunn. Dunn is a defensive liability in the OF to the point where the net gain offensively is significantly reduced. Willingham is a better option for the reasons described above. I wouldn’t trade a top prospect for either one, so I don’t really see a deal getting made.

  110. 155—But, I thought Venters should be sent to the minors if his control were really that poor.

    156—There may be no such thing as a pitching prospect, but the closer they get to the majors, the more likely they are to make it. That was my point about major-league-readiness. And, as mravery notes, your hyperbole is a bit much.

    162—Stuff, mostly. And he’s been unlucky this year.

  111. I’m just curious, but what kind of guys ARE worth trading top prospects for? Of course there’s the silly “Braun” answer, but realistically, who would be worth giving up a top prospect for – keeping in mind that GMs aren’t stupid and aren’t going to trade a cost controlled superstar for one top prospect and garbage.

    Dunn is terrible in the OF, but is he so terrible that the offensive production would only be marginally better than Willingham?

  112. I like the idea Willingham, and being able to run Willingham, Diaz and Glaus out there against the Hamels and Santana’s of the world, and having Heyward, Hinske, Dave Ross, and Omar Infante on my bench.

    Likewise, against some righties, I like that we’d run Hinske out there at 1b with Willingham and Heyward in the outfield.

    I do think against righties, that’s 60% of starters, that you can live with Blanco in CF if you’ve got Willingham and Heyward in the corners.
    But in this scenario, against Santana and Hamels, your centerfielder is… Brent Clevlen? Melky Cabrera? Gregor Blanco anyway?

  113. I would also rather have Willingham than Dunn. We need a right-handed bat more, plus I don’t think Dunn can really play outfield — he’s really a first baseman, which we don’t really need.

    However, if Wren didn’t trade for Willingham a couple of years back when he could have had him for nothing, I doubt he trades for him now.

  114. This Dunn conversation is about to become moot anyway, at least until the offseason…and even when we could’ve had him for cheap, we went for Griffey/ACHE. I can’t bring myself to discuss something that’s never going to happen.

    We might as well discuss what RH reliever we want.

  115. Tonight’s lineup: Prado 4, Heyward 9, Chipper 5, McCann 2, Glaus 3, Hinske 7, Infante 6, Cabrera 8, Medlen 1

    For me the real problem is that we have Melky as an everyday starter right now.

  116. I’m really not sure Glaus could play 3B any more. Even if his feet and ankles held up to the extra strain there’s no evidence that he can make the throw across the diamond any more. That, more than anything else, is what the shoulder injury robbed him of a few years back.

    Going into the year the Braves needed Chipper to rebound (kinda did, sorta didn’t), Heyward to be a force (was, then got hurt, now trying to get back to crushing the ball like before) and Glaus to pan out (more or less has.) They were also counting on offensive production for SS that they never got, a decent CF option in McLouth/Cabrera and solid pitching.

    They still need that. Willingham is the piece that pushes the division back into their favor post-Oswalt, but they still have a 3 game lead. If they can get Chipper, Heyward and Glaus on track at the same time, they’re the favorites to win the division. If they can’t, they’re even odds.

  117. I’m pretty sure that Dunn in the OF these days would make Garrett Anderson look like a gold glover. He was never anything but bad, and he hasn’t played the position in two years (more or less.)

  118. there’s no evidence that he can make the throw across the diamond any more. That, more than anything else, is what the shoulder injury robbed him of a few years back.

    Is there any evidence that he can’t? How do you know that the shoulder injury robbed him of that? The Cards played him at third, when they played him, last year.

  119. If the Phillies are trying to get Bautista on top of Oswalt while Wren is planning on (or being forced into) “standing pat”, then we should just eat salary and move as many people as possible. It’s all well and good that we’ve come this far, but we came this far riding offensive hot streaks and opponent’s cold streaks, and those opponents are getting better while we’re sitting with our thumb up our ass and praying.

    No thanks. Eat all of Lowe’s 2010 salary (if for no other reason than to piss off LM, because I’m sure they’d love to pay for a guy to play for another team) plus $8mil a year in 2011 and 2012. Someone should take a league average innings eater with flashes of goodness every now and then for $7mil, right?

    Dump Kawakami somewhere if possible, and push McLouth down some stairs so we can collect insurance on that shit.

  120. Is there any evidence that he can’t?

    Not that I know of. If the team wanted to give him a try over there I wouldn’t balk at it. But given his mobility problems at 1B and running the bases, I don’t think it’s really an option, regardless of his throwing. I don’t think he can start and stop well enough to play 3B any more.

  121. #172 Dunn has one of the worst record in the outfield. All defensive metrics agree. Bad as in historically bad.

    Check the Alex Remington primer on UZR. For more info.

  122. If the Phillies are trying to get Bautista on top of Oswalt while Wren is planning on (or being forced into) “standing pat”, then we should just eat salary and move as many people as possible.

    You kids are cartoons of yourselves, sometimes.

  123. But given his mobility problems at 1B and running the bases, I don’t think it’s really an option, regardless of his throwing. I don’t think he can start and stop well enough to play 3B any more.

    This, I agree with. But you were talking about his arm, and I’m not aware of any issues there.

  124. Forgetting the shoulder, if knees, ankles, and feet are the problem at 1b, how can he play 3b?

    3b needs to cut in front of shortstop on slow rollers. 3b needs to charge hard on EVERY bunt. 3b needs to make that running in barehand grab on slow rollers and swinging bunts.

    None of that is true at 1b. The 3b charges those slow rollers and swinging bunts because the majority of pitchers are right handed, and their follow through takes them to 1b. Slow rollers to that side, the pitcher stands a chance at.

    The ball between short and third, the thirdbaseman needs to make that play because the throw is so long. The ball needs to be fielded and thrown as quickly as possible. This isn’t true at 1b. You let the ball bounce slowly to the second baseman, because the throw is so short, and because someone has to be there at 1b.

    Mobility issues at 1b do not lead to a move to 3b. The opposite is true.

  125. Even if the Phillies can catch us and win the division, there’s still the wild card.

  126. I’m not saying that Dunn isn’t awful, I’m just asking if he’s so bad that his offense would only be slightly more valuable than Willingham’s. I mean aren’t 1B and LF the two positions where you really want offense over defense? Of course you’d like to have both, but with how many guys is that really the case? Especially guys with such huge offensive upside like Dunn? He’s got a decent OBP which plays right along with our team, but he also has a high SLG which is exactly what the team needs.

    @186

    Same way Chipper does, probably. Lots of spit and duct tape and time off.

    @184

    Hey thanks man. I’m so glad I’ve been able to entertain you today. =)

  127. This whole being in last place sucks.

    What’s that??? Oh. We are in first?

    You guys panic too easy. If we can get a bat we will be fine and even if we don’t, I still think we will be fine

  128. It would be hard to accept trading Delgado, Teheran, etc. for Willingham when he was most recently traded for Emilio Bonifacio. That’s a completely unfair way of judging a trade, but it would still sting.

  129. Shoot, it still stings me that we didn’t beat Washington’s offer for Willingham (and Olsen) when they got him from Florida. That was like the same week when the Yanks got Swisher for Betemit and other assorted crap.

  130. #169 – They are all good to excellent pitching prospects. But prospects are all they are. All I am saying is that you are tempted to trade 1 or 2 of them if you think thats what it will take to get to the post season.

    History says the Braves have been more than willing to do that.

  131. I don’t think anyone will be trading Delgado or Teheran for anyone, especially not Willingham. At least I hope not. Minor is really the highest ranked prospect I’d be willing to see get moved, and I wouldn’t even want him involved in a Willingham deal.

  132. 192—I don’t recall the Braves ever dealing two top-25-in-the-game pitching prospects for a two-month rental.

  133. #191 – But our outfield in 2008 was Kotsay, Blanco, Diaz and Francouer why would we need Willingham?

  134. #194 Unlike Bethany I don’t have a Dunn fetish. I believe that Willingham is a better fit. IMHO he would be the target for a trade not Adam Dunn.

    In my opinion, the Nats, if they are even dangling Willingham, would ask for either a MLB ready pitcher (Medlen) or a package of prospects.

    However, color me the irrational optimist but I think if we stand pat we can still win with the deepest starting and relief pitching in the league a good enough defense if Blanco plays center and a (ahem) death by a thousand cuts offense that gets lots of guys on base and puts pressure on opponents pitching. While I am dismayed by the last 2 series losses against inferior opponents, we’ll bounce back.

Leave a Reply

Your email address will not be published.