250 thoughts on “We never seem to play too well against the Brewers game thread: July 24, Braves at Brewers”

  1. I’m not a spammer Mac… really. I think I just had two or thee comments in the last thread marked as spam. All because I wanted to point out that somebody here should be sponsoring the guy we’re not talking about’s page on baseball-reference.

  2. It’s the Royals fault. They had the choice to switch to the NL first, and declined. Thus the Brewers got to switch.

    I wonder which league the Brewers would have been put in back in 1969 if they had started in Milwaukee instead of Seattle.

  3. Mac… apparently a link to baseball reference got me marked as a spammer… cause nothing I post logged in is appearing. Help?

  4. The ESPN fantasy baseball expert (who looks like baseball’s equivalent of John Clayton) picked Manny Parra to have a good game tonight against ATL. I hope he’s terribly wrong.

  5. OK, I’m CharlesP, but everything I try and post is disappearing as, apparently, spam. Hoping this makes it through so Mac can unflag me.

  6. The 1969 expansion was the result of a lawsuit against the American League. Ah for the days when the leagues were more than just conferences.

  7. Jc’ed from the previous:

    Murph was damn good ballplayer – but just isn’t a HOFer to me. Too short of a career, not a high enough peak, not enough counting stats, and rate stats are too low. Rice isn’t one either, but two mistakes would be worse than just one. Raines is the one getting screwed here – not Dawson and Murphy.

    added- and Dawson is an even worse pick. New BBWAA motto “Why not just put in everyone who was good when I watched as a kid”

  8. Dawson squeezed out a few more years on wounded knees, upping his counting stats. Murphy realized he couldn’t do it anymore & just bailed.

    Brewers, Milwaukee.
    Violent Femmes, Milwaukee.
    Oh, I get it.

    Saw them one time at a packed 688 Club in Atlanta in the dead of summer when the club’s air conditioning died. People were passing out. Good thing they were an acoustic band or it coulda been deadly.

  9. As far as Dale Murphy goes, I didn’t become a Braves fan until 1991, so while I respect the hell out of him and have grown to understand how good he was and what he meant to the team, he doesn’t really mean all that much to me personally. In fact, my first memory of him is as a member of the Phillies (not to make people’s blood crawl or anything). So I think I can look at him fairly objectively, and I have to say, I really don’t think he has much of a case. I suppose it depends on what your criteria for the Hall of Fame are, and it’s different for everybody, but looking at his numbers, I just don’t see it, and frankly never really have. Now admittedly, Jim Rice certainly doesn’t belong in the Hall of Fame either, in my opinion, and if we’re putting people like Rice in, an argument can definitely be made for Dale Murphy, but we could go a long way down that road if they start doing that. Frankly, if he hadn’t won back-to-back MVPs, I’m not sure there’d really be any discussion at all. At least not among the national writers.

    Now, I’m sure you can argue, and probably correctly, that I can’t appreciate all he brought to the team and exactly how good he was during his peak years. And you would probably be right. And maybe if he played for either a winning team or a large media-market team, he’d be getting more pub. But when you play for a team as awful as most of his Braves teams were, and are only involved in one year where you carried the team to something at all worthwhile, all you have to fall back on are your stats. And frankly, his don’t measure up.

  10. Murphy was a two-time MVP who was basically the only good all-around player on an Atlanta team that somehow won the division one year. How is that not a high enough peak? Half the position players in the Hall didn’t have a high enough peak.

    In my original article, I was not making, precisely, an if-one-then-two argument, because Rice wasn’t in the Hall yet — though it was clear that he would be eventually. The basic question is, still, why Rice and not Murphy? Or Parker, whose peak was almost as high (they won the MVP in the same year), whose team actually won a World Series, and whose career counting stats blow Rice out of the water?

    Raines is a completely different matter. I didn’t even discuss it because (a) he wasn’t eligible yet and it was unclear how he would be received, (b) he was a different type of player, a leadoff man and not a 3/4 type, (c) he wasn’t really a contemporary, as his career got going and peaked several years later, and (d) he obviously should be in the Hall.

  11. Frankly, if he hadn’t won back-to-back MVPs, I’m not sure there’d really be any discussion at all.

    And if Henry Aaron didn’t hit 755 HRs, I’m not sure there’d really be any discussion at all.

    I understand the anti-Murphy argument, but you can’t just pretend like he didn’t win back-to-back MVPs—that he was the best player in the league for multiple years is a very, very strong arrow in his HOF quiver.

  12. Another rough day for Carolina athletics. I don’t dislike Tim Tebow as much as I used to, and I can’t stand Spurrier, but it still hurts to see your coach groveling at the feet of another player. And it’s all so bizarre – if Spurrier’s story is true, what was the underling who filled it out thinking? Jevan Snead? You could make the argument that he’ll be the better pro QB, but I don’t think that was the purpose of the ballot.

  13. I don’t really buy Spurrier’s story. I think he just decided to stick it to Florida a little bit by not voting for Tebow. I think he’s decided to backtrack after some scrutiny and someone in the USCe Athletics Department is the fall guy.

  14. back to back MVP’s

    Yeah, Mike Schmidt would like a word with you about 1982.

  15. Rickey being in the Hall and off the ballot is good for Raines, who is now by far the best leadoff hitter not in the Hall. As Mac has written, when comparable players are on the ballot, they often split each other’s votes; therefore, the election of one often helps the others collect some of the previously split votes.

  16. Well first of all, if Hank Aaron had not had the all-time HR record, he’d still be in the Hall of Fame. Frankly, if he had Murphy’s HR total, he’d still be in the Hall of Fame. He had 3,000 hits and a bunch of other truly ridiculous stats. In fact, his argument as one of the greatest players of all-time has been hurt by his HR record, probably. So I’m not sure what you were going for there.

    I guess I understand the underlying premise of your argument, but the MVP is a subjective award voted on by writers. It’s not necessarily the guy who had the best overall year. It’s not even supposed to go to the guy who had the best overall year. Just the guy who was most valuable to his team. A decent argument could have been made that Manny Ramirez, a guy who arrived in the league in late July, should’ve been last year’s NL MVP. Using it as a tool for Hall of Fame credentials is somewhat problematic. Not quite as bad as, but along the same lines of, using All-Star selections. Hell, most people have pretty much handed Barry Bonds the 1991 NL MVP, which he did not win, when they list his credentials (at least they did pre-steroids).

    If you wanna say Dale Murphy was the best player in the league during those years and back it up with stats, that’s fine, but using the MVP award itself is problematic in my view.

  17. How is that not a high enough peak?

    Only six (and I’m being charitable here) elite offensive seasons. None of those being particularly world-beaters. His defense wasn’t THAT good. And then he fell right off a cliff.

  18. The basic question is, still, why Rice and not Murphy? Or Parker, whose peak was almost as high (they won the MVP in the same year), whose team actually won a World Series, and whose career counting stats blow Rice out of the water?

    Because Rice ain’t a Hall of Famer either, in my view. If the bar is set to the worst guy in, you must be a very “big hall” kinda guy.

    Why not Parker? His rate states aren’t HOF and he had no peak – a half dozen great years wildly interspersed (and everyone knows why) with a lot of pedestrian ones.

  19. Schmidt has a point about 1982 — but then, Murph should have won in 1987.

    ADDED: One peripheral way to tell if someone is a HOF candidate is if he can win an MVP when he’s not having his best year. 1982 turned out to be Murphy’s fifth-best year, after 1987, 1983, 1985, and 1984. As I said, he should have won in 1987, and very easily could have in 1985, when there really was nobody having an MVP-type season and the actual best player was likely Doc Gooden.

  20. So I’m not sure what you were going for there.

    What I was going for is the point that it’s ridiculous to just arbitrarily remove huge accomplishments from a guy’s resume when discussing his HOF candidacy.

  21. Parker’s never going into the Hall. And he hardly has any supporters. The only way Murphy gets in is if there’s a major media campaign. I’d guess that even if he gets a bump, though, he’ll peter out around 40-50%. Last year of eligibility’s 2013; he just doesn’t have enough time.

    It’s a shame.

  22. He was by far the best player on a team he carried to the playoffs

    I don’t recall this being the definition of Most Valuable player anywhere. In fact, I think it’s not a good one at all. So Bonds (let’s pretend he was clean for a moment) Shouldn’t have been MVP all those years?

    Schmidt was just plain better than Murphy with the bat and at least his peer with the glove in 1982.

  23. Despammed. If you’re getting blocked, your best bet is to email me, because the spam filter is often a cesspool and I try to avoid looking at it.

  24. Through the early eighties, and for at least ten years after that, there was a belief by the MVP voters that you shouldn’t give the award to the same guy every year, so people like Mantle, Mays, Morgan, and Schmidt only won when they exceeded their own high standards. That finally started to break down a few years ago.

  25. Actually, the fact that MVP awards are voted by writers probably makes them a great barometer for Hall-worthiness, as the same BBWAA votes for the Hall.

    Mac, I think I see Ozzie Smith backflipping over to take the ’87 MVP from the Hawk.

  26. I can’t control who is awarded MVP – but if your definition is the one we are going with, you can’t really use it to pimp someone’s HOF case. It (MVP Award) becomes totally involved in the kismet of whether your team was one of only four that went to the playoffs. All others need not apply. Hardly a point for measuring the value of a career since so few arbitrarily qualify

  27. I basically agree with spike.

    But I so badly want Dale Murphy to be in the Hall of Fame that I will forever argue the most pro-Murphy arguments possible. When it comes to Murph, I just don’t care about the actual HOF criteria.

  28. Nick,

    The missing thing from the Murphy argument is he played, well, CENTER field. Vastly different than playing left or right. The third toughest position on the defensive spectrum (right? Catcher / Shortstop , center, 2nd, 3rd, right, left, 1st). The positional adjustment as to a left fielder is 30 or so runs and Murphy was plus on that.

    Another thing about centerfielders is that most “broke down” physically at slightly younger ages than their outfield counterparts. More like shortstops who have to move off to third or second or center field or left or right field (or, even to first base with Julio Franco and Ernie Banks) to keep playing.

    Di Maggio basically was through at about 34 (with 13 seasons because he came up early and lost about 3 to WW II). Mantle was no longer effective in center (injuries and medical conditions, and alcohol all helped) within a few years of his debut. And we saw it with Andruw. Mays kept most of his centerfield capability to around 36 or 37, but after that he had no business out there. Every day centerfielders probably deserve to be judged on a shorter expected career (than left fielders, right fielders, first basemen, but probably more like catchers and shortstops).

    I agree with someone who submitted that if Murphy had been able to cobble out 2 or 3 more slightly above average seasons on the end of his career, he would also be already in Cooperstown.

  29. Jack Clark played in 131 games in 1987, four of them as a pinch-hitter. I doubt anyone (other than pitchers and catchers) has ever won an MVP sitting 35 games on the bench. He barely even qualified for the batting title.

    The 1987 MVP debate basically comes down to Ozzie and the rightfielders — Murphy, Gwynn, and Strawberry. And yet, somehow they chose another rightfielder entirely.

  30. Cliff –

    You do realize only half of Dales’s games played were as a CF?

  31. Right, and in those 150 more ABs Murph had 9 hrs, 4 2Bs and 15 LESS walks. If you think that overcomes a 60 point OPS/20 point OPS+ deficit, well you are entitled to your opinion.

  32. You do realize only half of Dales’s games played were as a CF?

    That’s still a lot and should be a discriminator between Rice/Dawson and Murph.

    I don’t think any of the above are Hall-of-Famers, but once you make the mistake of letting Rice in then everyone has an argument.

    The comment about Murph not having a high enough peak is bizarre. Maybe just a misunderstand of what ‘peak’ is acutally talking about. Murphy’s case is basically all about peak.

  33. That’s an absurd argument, Spike. Leaving aside the enormous difference in defensive value and in just being in the lineup, here’s the Runs Created (in the B-R version):

    1. Murphy (ATL) 143
    Gwynn (SDP) 143
    3. Strawberry (NYM) 132
    Raines (MON) 132
    5. Clark (STL) 127
    6. Davis (CIN) 124
    7. Guerrero (LAD) 121
    8. Hayes (PHI) 113
    9. Schmidt (PHI) 111
    Dawson (CHC) 111

    There’s no credible argument for Clark unless you think “having the best Strat-o-Matic card” is the definition of an MVP.

  34. If you think that overcomes a 60 point OPS/20 point OPS+ deficit, well you are entitled to your opinion.

    He only thinks that because it’s true.

  35. Let’s not forget that when Clark was on the bench, the Cardinals had to play either the decaying corpse of Dan Driessen or the legendary Jim Lindeman at first base. I think that having one of those guys in the lineup cost them a few runs.

    There’s just no way that a first baseman who misses a fifth of his team’s games is the MVP. It’s just not feasible. If you want to argue that what Gwynn did was more valuable than what Murph did, or that Strawberry played on a better team in a bad hitting environment and still put up numbers almost as good, then fine. But arguing for Clark as the MVP is ignoring twenty percent of the season, saying it doesn’t matter.

  36. An umpire (’85) & injuries (’85 & ’87) probably cost the Cards 2 titles. Those teams were hell to play.

    And yes, Clark did have a killer APBA card in 1987.

    Two other killer APBA cards:
    “Dusty” Rhodes in 1954 (15 HR in 186 PA, 341/410/695)

    “Hurricane” Hazle in 1957 (403/477/649 in 155 PA)

  37. I doubt anyone (other than pitchers and catchers) has ever won an MVP sitting 35 games on the bench.

    Although I agree with your larger point, Messrs. Brett and Stargell have their hands raised.

    (Stargell owing his MVP to Sister Sledge, of course. I actually believe that.)

  38. True, Sansho. But Stargell’s was practically a Lifetime Achievement Award. It was his last good year, and he led the We Are Family Pirates to a championship. He didn’t deserve it that year, but probably deserved it at some point 1971-1973, when he finished 2nd, 3rd, and 2nd. (1973 would be my choice; that was Rose’s MVP, but Pops was a lot better.)

  39. Murphy’s career was probably also shortened by his original position (in the Majors, anyway) of catcher. So, while he certainly wasn’t any good at playing catcher, those couple of years plus the years in Center both contributed to the shortening of his career. True, it’s not a Kirby-like illness, but it is a factor in his lack of longevity.

  40. Well, despite the extra ABs, Murph had a WARP2/3 of 7.2 to Clarks’ 7.1. Clark was off to a monster season prior to the injury, and after he came back was nearly as good. His game (.355 EqA vs .322 EqR) was just better than Murph’s that year. Dale was already a full time RF by then (no GG that year either). But that’s fine. My argument was not Clark for MVP, just that IMO, he had a better year than Murph.

    he only thinks that because it’s true
    Concede by .1 WARP. Got me.

  41. Concede by .1 WARP. Got me.

    Congrats, you found a stat where it was close. Being on the field counts. A lot.

  42. Besides, the Atlanta didn’t make the playoffs in ’87 and St. Louis did, so Dale doesn’t qualify for the MVP award anyway, and Jack does.

  43. If you wanna hear an insane story about Billy Martin, check this out. It’s from Mets announcer Wayne Hagin doing a guest spot on WFAN today.

    Hagin was the announcer in Oakland during the BillyBall Era. The story begins a little less than halfway thru the audio file.


    1987: Yeah, I remember the furor over Dawson’s MVP.

  44. 1. McLouth CF
    2. Prado 2B
    3. Jones 3B
    4. McCann C
    5. Escobar SS
    6. Anderson LF
    7. Diaz RF
    8. Kotchman 1B
    9. Vazquez P

  45. WARP, of course, is supposedly based upon the idea of a “replacement-level” player. As we’ve seen, in right field, for example, it’s perfectly possible to have a sub-replacement player. As the Cardinals did when Clark was out of the lineup. Driessen was sub-replacement, and Lindeman made Driessen look like Clark.

  46. Interesting discussion as it pertains to the mole man (Dale Murphy).

    He was always be my favorite Brave, always. Dale was the consummate professional and a gentleman to boot. Hell, I never even knew he was a devout Mormon until after Dale retired.

    As for the Hall of fame, the barometer for me is, was he the best player at his position for ten years or more?

    No, Dale was not…. unfortunately. Three things went wrong in my opinion.

    First, Murphy started out as a catcher then switched to 1B before finally settling into CF in 1980, which coincidently was a strike year.

    Second, he only won the gold glove in CF from 1983-86 (five years).

    Third, Dale’s bad knee’s really curtailed his offensive production in his early thirties and shortened his career. he was switched to playing RF in 1987.

    All in all, if Dale Murphy had started out in CF, stayed healthy (did ya’ll know he played catcher for the better part of six years in the minors and Atlanta?) and been productive into his mid thirties, he would already be in Cooperstown.

    Also, it was the idea of Bobby Cox to put Dale in CF and Murphy was an awful defensive player behind the plate and at 1B.

  47. @58 – Ask AAR, it’s his definition. Clark was also ahead of Murph (1st in the league actually) in Batting Runs and Batting Wins. So there’s two more for you.

  48. 61,
    You know what I love? I never have to look up and see:
    1. McLouth CF
    2. Prado 2B
    3. Jones 3B
    4. McCann C
    5. Escobar SS
    6. Anderson LF
    7. Francoeur RF
    8. Kotchman 1B
    9. Vazquez P

    Ever again! What a beautiful thing.

  49. Interesting factoids:

    “No National League pitcher has had more starts this season during which he has allowed two earned runs or fewer than Jair Jurrjens. He has had 16. Dan Haren also has had 16, but nobody has had more than that.”

    “The Braves have averaged two runs more per game since Martin Prado joined the starting lineup than they did before it.”

  50. Haven’t seen much talk of Julio Teheran this year (for obvious reason, he’s still at rookie ball and still all projection and hype at this point), but his numbers have looked sharp in his 5 starts this year. Not walking many, not giving up many runs, etc.

    But does anyone know why he hasn’t pitched since the 13th? New or lingering injury problem? There’s no mention of anything like that in the press release from his last start (in which he pitched 8 innings). I know it’s tough to find news on rookie ball level prospects, but I was just wondering if something was up.

  51. By the way, the Braves went 37-18 against the Brewers from 1998 to 2005, never losing a season series. It’s only in the last 3+ years that we’ve struggled (11-14). Still, that adds up to a .600 overall winning percentage against Bud’s Boys. Not too shabby.

  52. I went to a game at Miller Park last May in a Chipper jersey (a Hudson/Bush matchup) and was heckled like I’ve never been heckled in my entire life. In the parking lot to the stadium, in the stadium, at the food stands, on the way out of the stadium. It was relentless.

    I was accustomed to going to games in Pittsburgh where they accept their terribleness.

    I seem to remember shouting things at Mike Hampton during BP, so maybe it was karma. I never understood why he always was in full uniform.

  53. It’s a Yahoo! glitch. Gameday has a normal Cards lineup, with the pitcher batting ninth and everything.

  54. OK thanks Brian.

    Douglass, considering Danville has used 18 pitchers in their first 30 games, my guess is that they don’t want to overthrow the young arms. I haven’t heard of any injury to Teheran.

  55. La Russa begins every day in front of the mirror telling himself how awesome it is to be TLR. “I’m Tony La Russa. I’m a lawyer. People write books and make movies about me.” [Repeat 100 times]

  56. The problem was that Yahoo! didn’t put Holliday into the Cards’ lineup.

    ESPN has a correspondent (Rachel Nichols) reporting from Brett Favre’s front lawn because he still can’t figure out if he wants to play.

  57. Makes sense, sansho. I kind of suspected as much. I only asked because he had such limited action last year due to injury, and it seemed that they were piching him at a regular interval up until this point.

    I can’t help it if it’s all hype, the kid intersts me.

  58. BTW, is rookie ball for weeding out bad talent or great names? Because in addition to Julio Teheran and Riann Spanjer-Furstenburg, of whom I’ve heard, they also have:

    Daniel Elorriaga-Matra
    Osman Marval
    Kuyaunnis Miles
    Ryohei Shimabukuro
    L.V. Ware
    Derick Himpsl

    Right there you’d have eight of the top 25 names in all of major league history, if they are allowed to progress that far. This tells me there must have been many thousands of greatly named ballplayers who have been conspired against throughout history — a purposeful blandification, if you will.

  59. Shimbakuro v. Matra would be an awesome showdown , assuming one of them is a pitcher, and/or giant moth.

  60. 1B and C, respectively, Spike. Can’t say if either one’s a moth, but Matra’s .109 average argues against a human build.

  61. Interesting – Gamecast has a MIL as a 58% favorite before the end of the first. IS that really the average for the home team’s win pct?

  62. #70……and Hampton was probably wondering why a grown person was wearing a jersey with another mans name on it.

  63. Waitasec… I thought you couldn’t get an RBI on a double play.

    Edit: Thought not. Gameday took it away.

  64. Brewers messed that up enough to get the run in. Good enough for a Kotchmania at-bat I guess.

  65. Freeman and Heyward doing work already tonight..

    Mississippi up 6-0 in the 4th. Heyward and Freeman each with two hits and a R and RBI.

  66. But Barry, I’m not that grown. Is still being in college grown? Besides, the part of me that was wearing the Chipper jersey was still in 6th grade.

    Better than a Francoeur jersey/shirt any day of the week.

  67. Man, That Javier Vazquez is a good f’n ballplayer…even if he doesn’t know how to win.

  68. “I do think certain kinds of music can make you violent. Like, when I listen to Nickelback, it makes me want to kill… Nickelback.” – Brian Posehn

  69. I love the “Separate Ways” video, which is the greatest piece of comedy the MTV era ever produced. But frankly, Snitker isn’t even cool enough to be a Journey fan.

  70. There’s so much to explain. Like, why is she walking up and down a loading dock? How could they make a video in which Steve Perry is at most the third-goofiest-looking person? Can you actually play the garbage cans?

  71. There’s just so much denim. And that sleeveless t-shirt with the pink squares. That was a good idea.

    The keyboard player clawing at the air at about :55 is stone cold classic.

  72. I always thought Journey’s Steve Perry looked like a gnat.

    Journey, Styx or Boston?

    I close my eyes & say…Boston.

    I saw Foreigner once when I was 14. They were blown away by their opening act: Cheap Trick.

  73. “Decaying corpse of Dan Driessen”…that’s just funny

    Lots of hard hit balls in this game tonight. Neither pitcher seems to have much. Might be a 12-10 affair in the works.

    I’d bet Snitker listens to the Judds.

  74. Look, at this point we might as well get rid of errors entirely. Guy whiffs on a double play ball, it hits him on the knee, they call it a double.

  75. “Look, at this point we might as well get rid of errors entirely.”

    I’ve been saying that for 2 years. They really serve not a lick of purpose at this point. With the advanced fielding metrics and the fact that the scoring decisions are so silly anyway (and thus you might as well not pay attention to ERA, probably more useful to pay attention to RA) they’re really sort of useless.

  76. This team can never drive that nail into the heart of another team when they have the chance to. They squander more run scoring opportunities

  77. Oooh, I don’t know about letting Parra hit for himself, especially since you can’t expect more than one more inning from him anyway.

  78. I can think of a couple of pitches that might be better than to throw a fastball belt high to Ryan Braun on a 1-2 count

  79. Well…we’re gonna have to score against this club because they will certainly put some runs up. Hopefully we didn’t blow our wad back in the 4th when we had Parra on the ropes and didn’t capitalize.

  80. After that HR, Heyward’s line through 17 games at AA:

    .424 BA / .514 OBP / .746 SLG / 1.260 OPS with 9 doubles, 2 triples, 2 HR, 13 runs, 13 RBI, 11 BB, and only 4 k’s.


  81. Remember when Tommy Hanson was called up? Heyward, same time, next year.


  82. I’m already preparing myself to be disappointed. I felt those first two games we dropped at Miller Park last year after Memorial Day changed the trajectory of the season.

  83. I hit my first double of the season this year off the first baseman’s chest. I hit a ball pretty hard at the first baseman, it kicked up, hit him in the chest, and ricocheted down the line. Even my slow butt got to second off of it. It was legit, I tell ya…

  84. Did Ya’ll hear about this yet…..

    Texas Rangers pitcher Vicente Padilla tested positive for swine flu, though his symptoms are subsiding and he’s expected to make his next start.

    Padilla was scratched from his start Wednesday against Boston due to flulike symptoms, and lab reports Friday indicated he had H1N1 influenza A. He is thought to be the first athlete in U.S. major pro sports to be diagnosed with swine flu.

  85. I guess Jim Fregosi missed a couple of liners, one to third that Beckham snared, and another just foul, in the Buerhle game. I saw them on the Sportscenter highlight package.

  86. Woo, first vote! It’s even more horrible, of course. Probably Britney Spears or sumpin’.

  87. Finally!

    I really, really, hate Styx. Last year, they put a guy from Styx in the Alabama Music Hall of Fame, thereby creating a Hall of Fame Lionel Richie should be ashamed to be in.

  88. And Mr. Fielder wins the Golden Sombrero! I think I’d let someone else give him the award, though.

  89. “Snitker” just _sounds_ like the name of a Phil Collins fan.

    Oh hey Nate, good to see you again.

  90. Great. Now Norton will get six more chances.

    Edit: Nate, glad to see the slump’s dead!

  91. Has anyone else noticed Garrett Jones of the Pirates?

    74 AB, 10 HR, 1.272 OPS

    Was always seen as a lifer AAA player. He’s the uber-Conrad

  92. Yeah, The Groundhog Effect.

    I think the Glossary needs an update to distinguish between “The Groundhog” and “The Groundhog Effect.”

    Similarly, I think we should do the same with “The Hamster” and “The Hamster Complex” (When a player has a literally subhuman skillset and value to a baseball team, yet is carried on the roster anyway).

    Both of these additions would of course spark one of humanities great debates: Which is more harmful to a baseball team, a Groundhog or a Hamster? Think about it. Sure, the Hamster is the worse player, but they don’t play very often. But a Groundhog, despite having more potential, gives you just enough to stay in the lineup another day (or six weeks). A Groundhog is much worse, in my opinion. A groundhog slowly bleeds a team to death.

    What does this have to do with the game? Well, which one is Greg Norton, a Hamster or a Groundhog? Both, right?


  93. Well, which one is Greg Norton, a Hamster or a Groundhog? Both, right?

    Whichever the hunting season is in on I hope.

  94. Daniel,
    Did you know that the Braves actually drafted Garrett Jones in the 14th round back in 1999? Then waived him after only three years in the system…but he never got more than 150 ABs. I wonder what the story was there…injuries, or he maybe he was just that bad.

    Speaking of the Pirates, much as I may like McLouth, it is amazing that so many people thought the Pirates made a bad trade. Andrew McC and guys like Garrett Jones are replacing every bit of his production, and Morton is giving them decent major league innings, plus there is a chance that down the road they get useful major leaguers out of both Locke and Gorkys. Given their circumstances, they made a great trade. And a decent trade for us too.

  95. @206

    Look at what the Cards gave up for 3 months of Holliday.

    We have Nate for 4 years at an average salary of under 4 MM per and have an out on the last year if his game goes to hell.

    I liked the trade at the time. I love it now. Both Locke and Gorkys have been horrible since the trade, and Morton was surplus for us at best. None of them are close to being the player Wallace will be. It was an awesome deal for the Braves and the Pirates…are still the Pirates

  96. The Mets and Phillies lost. The Mets really suck. If we hadn’t traded for Teixeira, I’d be all over Halladay right now just to piss off the Phillies.

  97. My bad. If they pick up his 2012 option, it comes out to around 6 MM per. Still well worth the value however

  98. @193 I don’t know, there’s a bunch of folks that deserve to be in the Bama HOF. Dan Penn comes to mind.

  99. I agree the McLouth deal is terrific. Nate isn’t a super star but he is a damn good player.

  100. If Nitram starts all but 10 games or so from here on out, he’ll qualify for the batting title. I don’t think Hanley’s giving it up, but right now Prado would be fourth, and only a few points from second.

  101. Yunel and Prado since June 1:

    Yunel: .322 BA / .375 OBP / .500 SLG / .875 OPS; 6 HR, 23 R, 31 RBI

    Prado: .364 BA / .422 OBP / .526 SLG / .948 OPS; 4 HR, 27 R, 18 RBI

    Production like that from the middle infield will win you some ball games.

  102. I hear ya. They’ve always tried to have a high profile inductee to drum up attendance to the ceremony. Doesn’t make it right, for sure.

    Edit: and by “high profile” I mean someone the mullet-sporting crowd that surrounds the HOF has actually heard of.

  103. I said the trade was a good trade for us. But it was also a fantastic trade for the Pirates, in part because they recognized that Nate’s value would never be higher, but more so because they recognized that they would actually be every bit as good by simply playing McCutchen instead.

    Nate’s ML avgs are .260/.337/.458
    As a rookie McCutchen is putting up .297/.354/.462.

    Over the next three years McCutchen will more than replace Nate’s production and he’ll do it for something like 17 million fewer dollars. And they got potentially as many as 5 cost controlled years of useful ML ready starting pitching plus two promising prospects.

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