Braves 4, Yankees 0

New York Yankees vs. Atlanta Braves – Box Score – June 23, 2009 – ESPN

Another day, another shutout. Whatever works, I guess. Tommy Hanson was “effectively wild” again — maybe a little less wild. He cruised through the first, but was in trouble most of the rest of the night, allowing at least two baserunners in four of the next five innings. But he got out of it each time until the sixth, when Moylan came in and got Jeter on a double play. Hanson wound up with four strikeouts (three of the same guy, Posada) and just four hits, but five walks.

The Braves jumped in front in the third. Escobar singled with two out, then stole second and went to third on a terrible throw. Chipper walked, and McCann doubled off the wall, scoring Escobar, though Chipper (as is always the case with the Braves) couldn’t get home from first on the two-out double. It didn’t matter, as ACHE came through with a gapper to score both baserunners.

Moylan handled the Yankees in order in the seventh, and Gonzalez dominated them in the eighth. In the bottom of the inning, Chipper just missed a homer, then McCann didn’t, knocking it over the right field wall to make it 4-0. Soriano, in the non-save/Atlanta Save situation, walked one with one out but pitched around it. (Actually, he seemed to have the hitter, Damon, struck out; the Braves could not buy a borderline called third strike tonight.)

The Braves had seven hits, three by McCann and two by Yunel, and none by Francoeur, who sucks.

128 thoughts on “Braves 4, Yankees 0”

  1. And I had the “opportunity”to watch Cin-Tor from Great American Bandbox.

    June sucks.

    Frenchy sucks.

    Time-Warner Cable sucks.

    The Braves….don’t…suck???

  2. Recap was right on the money. Umpire behind the plate was squeezing Hanson all night. Still, the big guy was awesome. The difference between him vs. Morton or Reyes is when he misses, he misses away or way up or way down, not belt high in the middle. When he puts it together the rest of the league will have to look the hell out.

    Moylan in the 6th and 7th was HUGE. He really locked the game down. A healthy Moylan, pitching like that, is worth 10-15 wins to braves total, easy. Very nice development tonight.

  3. Moylan is very important in the way Bobby uses him. He will only get better as he was back pitching far too early from his recovery.

    As I have predicted last night, the Yankees’ offense is not that scary once you take them away from the new Yankees Stadium. However, that takes nothing away from a fine performance by Hanson!

    Mac, you mean Kelly doesn’t suck like Frenchy?

  4. Tommy Hanson on MLB TV right now.

    well, that was short. anyway, said he felt very comfortable with breaking stuff but is rushing his fastball, also that his priority now is (as should be obvious) not to work so hard so that he can get deeper into games.

    Sounds like his head’s on straight, certainly.

  5. This is a hard team to like. You expect the offense to suck, but then they can’t play defense or run the bases either. When they do win, it’s usually inspite of themselves. I’m glad for the win, and beating NY is always a plus (motto: hating the Yankees since ’96) but it’s just not that fun to watch most of the time.

  6. Short interview. Hanson said all the right things though. “I feel like I’ve gotta long way to go…these past couple weeks have been battles…wanna get to where I’m cruising.” “Still not getting on top of my fastball, getting away from me, especially against left handers…”

    I really, really like this kid.

  7. @5 Mac, you should use that as the Braves Journal Slogan.

    “NOBODY SUCKS LIKE FRANCOEUR”

    I really like that.

  8. Acosta, O’Failurety and Sori. Both Gonzo and Moylan have pitched on three consecutive days…and I am sure we will see Bennett and Medlen will still be watching in the bullpen.

  9. GREAT GAME!

    Good to see Tommy Hanson struggle and still come out on top. I am positive he will get tagged eventually and the game after that will be the real test. But to see him struggle and not give up, or let his frustration lose the game is great.

    Is it possible to single/double our way to 165 or more games?

    I have a few friends who got stuffed into lockers by Frenchy back at Parkview. It was a cool story when he broke in back in 05, but now its just sad…

  10. ringer, he got shelled in his 1st start, Id say he’s rebounded nicely (just got to cut down on the walks)

  11. I had to work tonight. Was Teixeira booed? Not that he deserved it, but I was just curious.

  12. John Kruk just said “The bottom line is, a win goes in the column when Livan Hernandez pitches”. I laughed so hard I threw up. Then threw up again because I threw up. And started laughing again because I just threw up because I threw up. Then I remembered why I threw up, because I was laughing. Then I remembered why I was laughing, because Kruk said “The bottom line is, a win goes in the column when Livan Hernandez pitches”. And I again started laughing so hard that I threw up.

  13. WHAT DO YOU MEEN I SHUD USE PUBLIC TRANSIT WHUTS THAT, ITS NOT LIKE I ACTUALLY LIVE IN NEW YORK LOLLLLL SUCK IT BRAVES FANS U HAV TO PAY A BUTTLOAD FOR PARKING LOL CHEK OUT MY JEEEETERRRR JERSEY BABY HAHA U SUK ATLANTA WHUTS GOIN ON? WE LOSIN? SCREW THIS IM OUTTA HERE WHATEVUR THIS TEAM SUX

  14. @18

    “I had to work tonight. Was Teixeira booed?”

    Yes. As was Jetey-Poo, ARoids, Ms. Damon, etc.

  15. hey whatsup guys big win tonight. yaaaaaaaaawn. you see me cut off that jeter hit early in the game? yeah, held him to two bases. i mean, he could have scored or whatever. yaaaaaaawn.

  16. Moylan called himself a douche!! HA, thats awesome

    per DOB

    Moylan on pumping his fist a little after the Jeter double play:

    “I pumped my arm a little bit, looked a little like a douche,” he said, smiling. “But we’ll worry about that tomorrow.”

    “We pitched great, hit great, and did what it took to win.”

    Then I asked him again about the arm pump.

    “It was a mixture of a Jonathan Papelbon and K-Rod, I guess,” he said.

  17. jeff is hitting .246. its not the best number in the world and his approach needs some work. but what does it take to get people off his back? there were only 3 guys in atlanta’s lineup to have hits.

  18. what does it take to get people off his back?

    an avg higher than .246, an obp over .300, a slg % higher than at least .350, an ops over .630, or for him to be traded

    1 of those would help, but he’s still (other than Giles) the worst RF in baseball right now and he’s holding this org. back right now

  19. @25 Either 1) out of Atlanta or 2) start hitting better than the sorry sub-.650 OPS he has been posting for past one and a third season.

  20. Rob, I hope it is, but I am feeling that there are still plenty of people in Atlanta who think he is our next Murphy.

  21. Ben-

    I’m not sure it would get everyone off his back, but replacement-level production out of RF would probably be enough for me. If he can touch an .800 OPS, he’s golden. But this guy has been killing the team for two years straight now. Why should anyone want to give him a break?

    On Hanson:

    He was not very good tonight. At least command-wise. Especially against lefties, he just couldn’t locate his FB, consistently missing high and outside. It was better against RH hitters, but not ideal. It did have good movement, however. He also had some trouble throwing his curve for strikes consistently, but it showed nice break. His slider was money, and his change (which I had heard was still something of a work in progress) looked very good the few times he threw it.

    Basically, if he starts locating his FB, he’ll be very difficult to stop. The only other concern is that he lost velocity on his FB as the night progressed. He was 93-95 early on, but by 4th, he was regularly in the 91-92 range. The bigger problem was the location, but I’d like to see a more consistent velocity.

  22. Nice win for the Braves–especially against team Evil…

    I think that Hanson is making good progress. It is not surprising to see his walks increase, but he looks so much better at this stages than Morton, Reyes, Davies or even Steve Avery. He should be able to improve his command enough to get the innings necessary to develop in other areas….

    I am looking forward to his next start….

  23. Beckett again?! Maybe he will get bored with our sorry offense and start creating troubles for himself just to have a little fun…wait…friday will be Javy’s turn…he will need to pitch a shutout again!

  24. The following is from a Yankees blog:

    “A-Rod and Posada are utterly lost. They combined to go 0-8 with five Ks. Derek Jeter continues to swing – and make outs – on the first pitch. Nick Swisher went 0-5. What happened to the highly touted patience this team was supposed to have? They’re constantly swinging at first pitches, bad pitches, and especially with runners on.

    Is there anything that can be done to get the hitters out of their collective slump (if that’s all it is)?”

    For a moment I thought he was writing about the Braves.

  25. dirt,
    Don’t know, but he sounds like German techno guy.

    Had to cut out in the 6th inning to see a band in Brooklyn tonight. Left in the middle of the Jeter AB & was in a taxi trying to hear the AB while the cabbie felt the need to start a conversation (very rare, as most of them speak Urdu & could care less).

    While he’s blabbing, Moylan induces the DP & I had a little fist pump going over the Kosciuszko Bridge. I knew we’d win after that.

    Now I’m watching the replay on DVR. I live for this. Let’s go for 2, fellas.

  26. Julio Teheran in action on opening night for Danville tonight.

    3.1IP, 5 hits, 2 runs, 2 earned runs, 0 walks, 5 strikeouts, 0 HR, 5.40 ERA

    “Right-hander Julio Teheran got the start and worked 3.1 innings and pitched well, allowing two runs on five hits with five strikeouts and no walks, though he hit three batters.”

    Some new signees also doing some things at the plate in their debuts…Danville won 8-3. I realize it’s rookie ball,but it’s the first game of the year and we’ve seen so little of Teheran so far, I thought it was worth pointing out.

    Link

  27. Douglass–at this point Teheran is potential and hype…I hope that he deserves it….

    Yeah, I am pretty excited by Danville’ start and by some of the talent on the GCL team….

  28. You’re all going to hate me, but…

    While ACHE is currently on his little “tear” where he actually hits the ball, though has no semblance of power, wouldn’t it make sense to stick him in the two-hole?

    Escobar
    Anderson
    Chipper
    McCann
    McLouth
    Kotchman
    Johnson
    Groundhog

    As long as Anderson is hitting these singles, he’d be much better served moving Escobar from 1st to 3rd than trying to drive in runs behind McCann, and this would allow McLouth to utilize his team-leading power better. It makes the 4-7 spots lefty heavy, but A) This team isn’t scoring runs in the first place, so we shouldn’t be terribly worried about matchups, and b) virtually the entire bench is right-handed, so replacing Frenchy with Diaz or KJ with Pradfante on a semi-regular basis could break that up.

    Also, an interesting note: The top two catchers in the NL in terms of VORP are both Braves.

  29. Bill, the answer is no. Even Anderson at his best doesn’t have the OBP you want hitting in front of Chipper and McCann. Swap Anderson and Kotchman in your line up and I’d like it though.

  30. I’d have to agree with Bill, GA is hitting like a #2 hitter, making good contact, getting runners over. I’d also keep Mclouth at leadoff, he’s been a much needed spark.

  31. #44, I would leave the lineup as it is but just switch Anderson and Escobar. One of our problems is we have 4 of the slowest players in baseball hitting in order (Jones, McCann, Anderson, Kotchman) and that was evident last week when Jones, McCann and Anderson had 3 consecutive singles and no runs scored. (Jeff hit in a double play next, go figure). You put Anderson in the 2 hole to move McLouth, who I love in the 1 hole because of speed and power. Yes, Anderson doesn’t have a great OBP, but he puts the ball in play and can hit singles and doubles with the best of them (he’s at 285 now). Escobar has more power than Anderson and that puts a little more speed in the middle of the slow guys and also puts a RH bat in the middle that can actually hit.
    McLouth (L)
    Anderson (L)
    Chipper (S)
    McCann (L)
    Escobar (R)
    Kotchman (L)
    Frenchy (R)
    KJ (L)

  32. On lineup changes.

    Having either Kotchman or Anderson in the upper part of the order causes real speed problems. This is a legendarily slow team. However we don’t need it worse.

    We need a functioning KJ (not that we will ever see one again) and need McLouth, Esco, KJ in the top two to three spots. then Chipper (who is, even with bad feet and other problems still faster than ACHE, Mc, Kotchman) next.

    Then, follow that with the slow sisters.

    IF ACHE can hit 300 / 320 / 450 he can sit behind McCann against righthanders and not cause too bad of a problem of pitchers working around McCann.

    The scary problem the last few days has been the “loogy’s dream list”. Monday it worked ok to have 5 lefthanders with one Chipper (who for most of his career is better lefthanded, at least in power) in the middle. I think trying Ross at first about once a week against lefties is something we ought to try.

  33. I like Matt M’s lineup alot. McLouth needs to be at the top because he seems to be most effective there. When Infante comes back I would put him in the two hole (or put Prado there now), slide Anderson to sixth and move everyone else down one:

    McLouth
    Prado/Infante/KJ (emphasis on Infante when he gets back)
    Chipper
    Mac
    Escobar
    Anderson
    Franceour/Diaz (The plattoon needs to be in RF while Ache is hitting).
    Kotchman

    I think you are going to see a big difference in this team if Infante comes back and can hit anything close to .270 because he helps the balance of this lineup a ton. His loss was huge because he would be playing everyday right now with KJ struggling.

    Edit: Feel free to flip Escobar and Ache depending on the matchup

  34. I really think that infante was the best leadoff the braves have had this year, and even prado would be ok up there..

    infante
    mclouth
    chipper
    mac
    escobar
    anderson
    diaz/ghog
    kotchman

    gives balance and though little power 6-8, good avg. I
    really believe a power hitting rh outfielder changes the dynamic completely.

    infante
    mclouth
    chipper
    mac
    (jermaine dye / vlad guerrero type)
    anderson
    escobar
    kotchman

  35. So here’s how my day went yesterday. I had a 12 hour day dealing with a single software problem (mostly babysitting users and processing and just making sure everything got done that needed to get done… though we’re still dealing with the aftermath today). I left work after Tommy had gotten the first 2 outs. I got home, grabbed a snack, turned on the game and watched him get the last out in the top of the 3rd… and then the transformer for the neighborhood blew and I lost power until 11pm (which meant I got to draw up and give the dog her insulin shot in the dark… goooood times). At least we won.

  36. Omar Infante’s career line: .264/.308/.392

    Let’s not expect much more than a wounded pumpkin when he comes back.

  37. billy-jay,
    There was an element of douche-yness, I’m sure—not that the blabby cabbie noticed.

    Always amusing the hear Yankee fans getting close to the brink. They lucked up & took 2/3 from the Mets (incl. Luis Castillo’s gift), but dropped 2/3 both the Nats & Marlins. Radio is a must-listen in times like these.

    And there’s a little internal Yankee drama going on—about A-Rod, of course. Saying he needs some rest, the brass decided to sit him for the first 2 Marlin games. (Girardi was not in on the decision.)

    Then he stays out all night clubbing with Kate Hudson, tons of photos get in the trashy celeb press & the Yanks were steamed.

    It doesn’t help that he’s hitting .207.

  38. Re: JC on Infante –
    This true, but in fairness, in the 125 games (445 PA) since the start of the 2008 season, he’s hitting .305/.349/.419. He just turned 27 last winter. There’s at least an outside possibility he’s hitting his stride.

  39. The only other concern is that he lost velocity on his FB as the night progressed. He was 93-95 early on, but by 4th, he was regularly in the 91-92 range.

    The drop in velocity had a lot to do with the weather last night. He was pitching in a 95 degree sauna.

  40. This is true, but in fairness, in the 125 games (445 PA) since the start of the 2008 season, he’s hitting .305/.349/.419. He just turned 27 last winter. There’s at least an outside possibility he’s hitting his stride.

    On a good offensive team Infante is a backup middle infielder. On the 2009 Braves he needs to start in RF.

  41. Ken Rosenthal with a bombshell…

    The Brewers’ quest for pitching could lead to renewed talks with the Braves, who in the past have targeted Brewers right fielder Corey Hart. The Braves would need to clear their own right fielder, Jeff Francoeur, before acquiring Hart, and no team is hot after Francoeur.

  42. Just read DOB’s blog. He says KJ is more of a disappointment than Groundhog and that Bobby’s legendary patience has ‘worn thin’. Indicated that Infante would be playing more when he comes off the DL if Kelly doesn’t turn it around.

    Bobby’s patience must be so thin as to be transparent by now. The tone of the post indicated that the Braves expected more out of KJ than they did Francoeur.

    But I still don’t understand. We all know KJ is a better player than Frenchy. Maybe??? the Braves know he is a better player. Yet, to JC’s point they’ll quickly bench him in favor of a nothing but journeyman infielder and continue to play Frenchy when he is sucking the life out of a hitters position.

    Mac’s post last night and something I read on Talking Chop has changed my mind on KJ. Like some here I was ready to give up on him but the advanced stats say that the guy has had some bad luck contrary to my very limited observation of his play.

  43. Mac, I have no idea what the answer to that poll is. I guess Kotchman? But I have a hard time giving it to one of the least demanding positions. Then maybe Escobar, but he does too many stupid things…ack.

    Count me out on Corey Hart. He’s walking more this year, but his K/BB ratio isn’t much better than Frenchy’s, he isn’t running anymore and his career OBP is uninspiring at best. He only seems like a wonderful option because of the debacle we’ve been running out there the past year and a half. Definitely wouldn’t give up Medlen for him.

  44. Help for the Poll

    +/- (denominated in runs)

    Yunel +1
    Kelly +4
    Jeffy -2
    Infante +1 (includes all positions)
    Kotchman +4
    Schafer -3
    McCann 0 (catcher rating on SB, I don’t buy the ERA adjustment)

    Someone Else
    Prado +6 (+5 at 3B)
    Diaz -2
    ACHE -1

    I refuse to vote for Prado (“Someone else”) on principle.

  45. Hart is better than a ground hog but thats setting the bar low. I wouldn’t give up a young pitcher for him either.

  46. I get that we need a bat, and that we have a pitching surplus.

    What I don’t get is who is trade-able? Who would we send to Milwaukee that matches up for Cory Hart? The Brewers want a major league starter. Lowe, Hanson, and Jurjjens are all too much for Cory Hart. Kawakami is coming around enough that other teams might trade for him, but he can’t be traded yet because he was a FA signing. And Vazquez has been our best pitcher so far.

    No one would want Reyes. Medlen isn’t any help for a team that wants to contend. Is Campillo still hurt? He might be trade-able, but he alone won’t net Cory Hart.

  47. 69—Medlen seems like the guy to me. I don’t want to see that happen; Hart’s not that good.

  48. If KJ was to go back to the approach he had last year, I think he’d be successful again. The kid isn’t walking much anymore – I think he is trying to do more than he used to and he is paying the price for it. Also, with the way Infante has been playing for this team, he would not be a backup on many teams. He has played extremely well for us. There isn’t much power there to speak of, but he is a middle infielder. He is not a problem, and I actually hope the Braves sign him to an extension for whatever role they hope to play him.

  49. Rosenthal. Sigh. His column should be called “Speculation Station: Rosenthal takes lip service from various officials and draws meaningless speculative conclusions!”

  50. @70- I can see Medlen going to a team that’s out of it, but I don’t see the Brewers moving an everyday corner outfielder for a fifth starter, upside or not. Maybe, though.

    You’re right though, Medlen is the most likely to go. Seems we’d get more value out of him by moving him to a team that’s out of it, like a move for Willingham or something, or if the D’backs or Athletics had anyone who could hit.

    BTW, it sounds obvious, but it’s really hard looking at the rosters of teams that aren’t competing, and trying to find guys you’d match up in a trade for. Problem with bad teams is that they don’t have a lot of good players.

  51. Marek came to camp extremely overweight. He was never Keith Richards, but he looked like Bob Wickman when I saw him down there. I hope he’s getting back into shape because he was a legit prospect before he decided to do the Man vs. Food challenge. Walks have been a problem for him this year, but his walk rate seems to be declinig. He’s only allowed 10 baserunners in his last 11 and 2/3 innings.

  52. @71,

    I wonder if part of KJ’s problem is playing in the same division as Chase Utley and feeling pressure to be not just a good player but a great, dominant one, especially this year when the Braves are crying for more offense. Just speculation.

  53. Julio Teheran in action on opening night for Danville tonight.

    3.1 IP, 5 hits, 2 runs, 2 earned runs, 0 walks, 5 strikeouts, 0 HR, 5.40 ERA

    The strike-outs sound impressive, until you look at the box score. Danville fanned 18 in 9 innings, or 2 per inning, meaning Tehran didn’t have as good a K-rate as the pitchers who pitched the rest of the game did. The next guy for us in that game did much better.

  54. @77- I personally think it’s more likely that KJ’s pressing because of Francoeur’s failure. Maybe I just want more things to blame Francine for. But I think everyone was counting so much on Francoeur playing better, and when he didn’t, KJ maybe took it on himself to take up the slack and thought he needed to be a different kind of player.

    At this point, though, I think he’s in his own head.

  55. Teheran’s start was decent: but bfan makes a good point about strikeouts–they are easier for pitchers to gather in the lower minors. That said, Masters really had it going–his palm ball must a potent weapon….

  56. OF’ers that should be made available, and that I wouldn’t hate, depending on the cost:

    Bal- Luke Scott, Aubrey Huff

    Was- Josh Willingham

    Cle- Mark Derosa, Shin-Soo Choo

    SD – Scott Hairston

    I don’t know anything about anyone’s contract status.

  57. Marek has dropped his ERA about 3 runs in the last month, he has been hot.

    Medlen for Hart, yuck.
    Hart is another Frenchy,maybe a little better.

  58. My prediction: KJ will have a great July and then disappear again in August and September.

  59. I don’t mind having Hart, but not at the cost of Medlen. If it’s JoJo and Frenchy for Hart, then I will do it in a sec.

  60. Or
    KJ had fluke years in 2007 and 2008 and is really a bad player. Reverse Gadfly logic.

  61. You know, I’m sort of glad we’re having trouble finding someone to take Stenchy. It will be really enjoyable to see him get non-tendered this offseason and read all about the aftermath.

  62. Anybody notice what happened when the underachieving Rockies replaced their country club manager with a guy who plays baseball? And demanded accountability?

    Bobby would have to step in front of the Cosmic Bus for a mid-season change to be made, but Colorado is proof that sometimes a new voice can actually improve the same players.

    One day after the season is not too soon.

  63. Oh, and Free Matt Diaz!

    Could we get Phillips from Cincinnati for Diaz and KJ? Should we?

  64. Why would they want KJ and Diaz?

    I just hope that we don’t do the take a bad contract to dump Frenchy’s salary thing.

    The Royals are the best bet to get him but someone made the point, why give the Braves anything for him when he will be free at the end of the season.

  65. Stu, is this a strange personality quirk where one enjoys reading the whining of spoiled entitled athletes?

  66. Seems the Brewers would be more interested in getting rid of Hart’s salary to free up some room for a pitching acquisition. I don’t think they really need him in the lineup, and they definitely don’t need Frenchy.

    I couldn’t take all the Sunglasses at Night jokes Chip would make.

    @87 – Then Jerry Manuel is proof that it doesn’t help just as often as it does.

  67. No, not at all, Johnny. I’d just enjoy this particular case once the organization has cut ties with him.

  68. “Wren said he’s been impressed with his team’s hitting recently, but he remains open to adding a bat that fits the Braves’ needs.”

    What the hell team has Wren been watching or, more to the point, what has Wren been smoking?

  69. Hart is another Frenchy,maybe a little better.

    Just to get this out there because it’s true: Hart is a much better major league hitter than Francoeur and would help immensely.

    I don’t see what we could give the Brewers to make it work though.

  70. Just to get this out there because it’s true: Hart is a much better major league hitter than Francoeur and would help immensely.

    But what you say of Hart is true of ~95% of major-league outfielders. Hart’s reputation exceeds his performance. He was a beast in 2007—otherwise, he’s another OBP-challenged corner OF with some pop…but not enough to make him good, relatively speaking.

    Obviously much better than Stenchy. Almost certainly not worth what he’d cost. IMO.

  71. Joe Morgan–what an analyst.

    (CA)
    What are your thoughts oin Tommy Hanson so far?

    Joe Morgan
    I haven’t seen him, and I havent read a lot about him, but everything I hear about him on TV, he’s going to be a star. But I don’t use other peoples’ judgements on players, I like to see them. I don’t follow the lead of others in terms of rating players. I like to do it myself.

  72. Did anybody go to the game last night?

    Aren’t the salaries of Frenchy & Hart about the same? If it’s not possible to do better than Hart, I wouldn’t mind giving up Frenchy & a pitcher we don’t love for him. Dunno if the Brew Crew would feel the same way.

    spike,
    The Post had pictures of them, but of course they may not have been from Miami. Nothing the Post does, esp. Pg 6, surprises me.

  73. Well, if we could include Stenchy in the deal for Hart, I would not be against it. I just seriously doubt that’s possible.

  74. But what you say of Hart is true of ~95% of major-league outfielders. Hart’s reputation exceeds his performance. He was a beast in 2007—otherwise, he’s another OBP-challenged corner OF with some pop…but not enough to make him good, relatively speaking.

    All obviously true of course. The point is we need a major league caliber right fielder and Hart is one. He certainly isn’t another Frenchy.

    Hart’s reputation exceeds his performance.
    Almost certainly not worth what he’d cost.

    These are worthless statements. Reputation with who? All that matters is how the GMs value him and you have no idea but are pretending you do.

  75. On a good offensive team Infante is a backup middle infielder. On the 2009 Braves he needs to start in RF.

    Funny, but slightly unfair. Infante’s .305/.349/.419 line makes him an above-average middle infielder. This year, ML 2Bs have combined to put up a line of .271/.337/.413. If Infante’s for real — a big if, admittedly — he’s actually better than average. (Making KJ slightly more expendable, considering that Prado’s having a better season than him in every respect.) Obviously, a lot of that is dependent on Omar’s batting average.

    Still, he’s pretty decisively demonstrated that he is a useful, productive member of the 25-man roster. Which is more than I can say for some.

  76. @99

    “I haven’t seen him, and I havent read a lot about him, but everything I hear about him on TV, he’s going to be a star. But I don’t use other peoples’ judgements on players, I like to see them. I don’t follow the lead of others in terms of rating players. I like to do it myself.”

    You know, what got me about the old FJM JoeChat rundowns isn’t so much that Joe Morgan is willfully ignorant, but that he turns every other question into a half-hearted defense of his inner Joe-ness. The fan wanted to know what Joe thought about Tommy Hanson (who a credible baseball analyst should know *something* about), and Joe answers by saying he likes to rate players different from everyone else.

    Wow! You’re awesome, Joe.

    And, of course, this one of the bazillions of answers that Joe has given on these things that hinge on the fact that Joe doesn’t know/isn’t sure/hasn’t seen/hasn’t heard. This is what the fans clamor for!

    @100, yep, upper deck in the RF corner.

  77. I’m happy to carry Hart in an outfield corner. He is a solid grade-B player — basically what 95% of Garret Anderson was at his peak. You can win with a guy like that. We just can’t afford to give up too much for him, and the Brewers don’t have a whole lot of incentive to let him go for nothing.

    I wouldn’t trade Vazquez, Jurrjens, or Hanson for him, and I don’t think Medlen or Reyes would be enough. With no more Gorky or Charlie Morton, we don’t have as many minor league chips as we used to.

    Would Kawakami do it?

  78. All that matters is how the GMs value him and you have no idea but are pretending you do.

    Sure, if we can ditch Stenchy and keep all of our valuable pitchers in getting Hart, let’s make the deal. I assume you either (a) have reason to believe that sort of swap is possible, or (b) think Hart’s worth more than I do.

    We’re talking about a corner OF who’s paid $3.25 million this year and has OPSed .800 exactly once in his 4-year career; forgive me for being loathe to give up much of value for him.

  79. @104,

    Absolutely right, DN. Morgan has made it abundantly clear that he is not a journalist, does little or no research, and has no inside information other than what he happens to glean from talking to players before the game, yet people keep asking him for his opinion. You would think that he would make some effort to actually know something since he presumably is getting paid for this, but unless something happens to come to his attention, he is clueless. I mean, he is working for a major sports network, yet hasn’t even made an effort to watch one of the more highly-touted prospects. It’s amazing.

  80. We’re talking about a corner OF who’s paid $3.25 million this year and has OPSed .800 exactly once in his 4-year career; forgive me for being loathe to give up much of value for him.

    Where as my post advocated trading the farm for him. Changing the argument – a Stu staple.

    My bad. I broke my own No-Stu rule. I know better.

  81. Stu,

    You’re skewing the numbers a little there. He OPS’d .796 once, along with .759 and .769 two other times. lus, the ONE time he reached .800, it was actually .892, almost 900. As a matter of fact, his OPS for his CAREER is .802.

    I’d take him.

  82. We’re talking about a corner OF who’s paid $3.25 million this year and has OPSed .800 exactly once in his 4-year career; forgive me for being loathe to give up much of value for him.

    Very true. On the other hand, we’re talking about replacing a corner OF who’s paid $3.375 million this year and has OBPed under .300 exactly three times in his 4 1/2 year career.

    If Corey Hart’s “star power” is enough to convince Wren to end the Jeffy experiment, sign me up. I would overpay just for the privilege of DFAing Frenchy.

  83. My bad. I broke my own No-Stu rule. I know better.

    I’m just sorry you broke the No-Robert experience which we were enjoying for months.

    jjschiller,
    But his career OPS is skewed by the one good (great) season in 2007.

    I’d take him over Stenchy, for sure, but I don’t think he’s enough more valuable than internal options like Jones and Barton (considering salary) to warrant giving up even Medlen.

  84. I would not trade KJ at this point to make room for Infante unless they were able to significantly upgrade at another position. I don’t see Infante as the answer by any means on a regular basis. And I don’t want to bury KJ on the bench, either, because he could come around in the second half. But the Braves need any production that they can get and if that means giving KJ less time if Infante continues to hit, so be it.

  85. AAR,
    Somehow—I have a guess—my point has been lost. Hart is obviously better than Francoeur. (Again, who isn’t?) But he’s not really *good*, and considering his salary, he’s not worth Medlen or better, IMO.

  86. Stu’s argument is sound. Hart isn’t a great player, and a lot of the time he’s barely above-average. Last year he was brutal, basically the equivalent to 2006 Frenchy. He rescues his OPS with a decent amount of slugging, which is nice, but his career OBP is .323.

    Like I said, he’s basically Garret Anderson. Hart’s career line, actually, is: .274/.323/.479; Garret’s career line is .296/.327/.467. They’re really similar.

  87. Baseball players are expensive. By my estimates, a league-average outfielder who plays everyday is worth around $7 million. I’m not saying the Braves should go after Hart, but I don’t think he’s overpaid.

  88. I’m just sorry you broke the No-Robert experience which we were enjoying for months.

    -laughs- I’m sure you are.

    I’m not saying the Braves should go after Hart, but I don’t think he’s overpaid.

    Yup. He would be a big step up for this team.

  89. JC,
    I don’t think he’s overpaid, either. I do think Hart at $3.25 million is not appreciably more valuable than Jones or Barton at $400 thousand. Are you saying that’s wrong?

  90. I think Stu has a valid argument — that Hart is overvalued. Doug Melvin will say Hart hit 20 homers, drove in 91 and swiped 23 bases last year. That’s obviously worth something. In reality he’s only 10-15 runs above replacement level, but you’re not getting him for that price.

  91. I think Stu has a valid argument — that Hart is overvalued.

    By who? Do you or Stu know how Mevlin or Wren values him? The only way we could know is if there were a trade, then we would know what they think is his value.

    Saying “I don’t think we should get him because he’s overvalued” makes no sense. No one here has any idea how anyone important values him.

    Edit: If Wren correctly values him as ‘Francouer with appreciably more pop’ and pay Melvins a price that is appropriate with that valuation then it would be a good deal. Melvin is free to make is own valuation and hold out for whatever he thinks is appropriate.

  92. By who? Do you or Stu know how Mevlin or Wren values him?

    Of course not. It’s called an opinion, which is based on Hart’s counting stats and how they over-inflate his value as a player. Do you really think Doug Melvin looks at Hart as a league average player?

  93. Apologize for the numerous typos in my edit up there. The edit timer was counting down and I felt the pressure apparently. I think my point still comes across.

  94. Do you really think Doug Melvin looks at Hart as a league average player?

    If he’s willing to move him, I would say there’s a fair chance he understands he’s not tearing up the league.

  95. If he’s willing to move him, I would say there’s a fair chance he understands he’s not tearing up the league.

    I’m of the belief that he wants to move him for a good SP — someone like Vazquez. Again, Hart may not be tearing the league up this year, but he was an All-Star in ’08 and has gone 20-20 with 80+ RBI the last two years. Points Melvin will certainly make to overstate his case.

    You’re right, though, this is all speculation and I have no idea what Melvin really thinks. I’m just of the belief that it’s going to cost more than Ken Kawakami. A lot more.

  96. @125 – Alot more than Kawakami? Give me a break. If they asked for a penny more than that, I’d shut the door on ’em. I don’t even think I’d give up Kawakami for them. Rediculous.

  97. Wow, a lot of hate in this thread.

    Hart is not a bad ballplayer, but he’s not that great. I wouldn’t want to pay him 5-6 million next year if he’s still posting a sub-.330 OBP at the end of the year. He’s got some nice pop, but is it enough to justify giving up Medlen? If we trade Medlen, we’d be heading to Tony Armas territory in the event one of our starters hits the DL. That’s a scary prospect.

    It’s unlikely that the Brewers can add payroll, right? That more or less crosses off Vazquez and Kawakami. Is Medlen worth it? I don’t know, but I would lean towards no. Only if they took Frenchy and I had a couple scouts telling me that Hart could be better than his numbers suggest.

  98. ububba, thanks for the reply. I thought there was a chance that you might know him because he’s a drummer in NYC involved with electronic musicians and fairly active. He plays with some friends of mine from Athens, Ga as well as !!!(ChkChkChk)and the Juan McClain. He’s recently sat in on drums with the Field, Moby, MSTRFRFT and I think LCD Soundsystem.

    Anyway, just curious…

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