179 thoughts on “Francoeur is… well, you know what game thread: July 22, Braves at Marlins”

  1. I propose that we refer to Francoeur as HWS (He Who Sucks). My dislexia causes me to constantly want to reverse the “u” and the “e” in his name and it pisses me off. Plus, it’s much shorter than “Francoeur, who sucks”.

  2. Trade idea: how about Tex to Arizona for Conor Jackson and a prospect? They need hitting.

  3. From the previous thread,

    AAR,

    I was glad to hear what you said about the reply from FJM. I agree that a lot of the cliches about “not having heart” and “putting a team on his back” are bullshit. But, this is baseball we are talking about, not evolution or Iraq or health care. It’s entertainment when you get right down to it. It bothers me that guys like this seem to take themselves (or the topic)so seriously.

  4. Yeah, you’re right. I was thinking we could ask for Chad Tracy instead, but then they’d have 2 first basemen.

  5. Carried over from the previous thread:

    “What was the need to personally attack DOB just because he had a different (perhaps uninformed) opinion.”

    It wasn’t a personal attack. It was an attack on the incredibly uniformed opinion on Teixeira. It must be frustrating to be a baseball writer who does have a much better understanding of the game than many who get paid to comment on it and receive no income for that. Futhermore, any professional baseball commentator or writer in the “stats don’t mean much” camp deserves whatever critcism they receive. To make such a statement is willful ignorance.

  6. I’ve always viewed FJM as entertainment as well, and their tone as satiric, not that they sincerely get that fired up about bad sports writing. I read it, find it funny (mostly), and move on. Mike Schur (Ken Tremendous) did an interview once where he said even he doesn’t really know all the more advanced stats, but just likes to deconstruct bad arguments and bad writing.

  7. “Trade idea: how about Tex to Arizona for Conor Jackson and a prospect? They need hitting.”

    Great idea. Let’s see if we can do a straight up swap too. Francouer for Justin Upton. Take it or leave it Dbacks.

    Tex numbers are so misleading. He is not worth 20mil, at least from the Braves standpoint. Can he at least hit JC Romero? or Cole Hamels from the right side? Tex is not that special, although 43 hr, 144 rbi and .954 OPS in 2004 was nasty. But it was on a pitiful Texas team, so no pressure.

  8. In regards to the poll; Jeffy Francoeur, like Jeffy Keane, acts three years old and as such should be grounded.

  9. Adam M.,

    From last thread. Wasn’t meaning to correct you, I was just putting out my thoughts a little more tersely than I meant them to come across. Please, forgive me. :-)

  10. just pointing this out

    Romero 38IP 27H 25BB 33K 2.13ERA 1.37WHIP

    Ohman 40IP 29H 17BB 36K 2.68ERA 1.14WHIP

    you would have to think that Ohman has some pretty high value right now

  11. Better yet:

    Brian Fuentes: 39IP, 33H, 11BB, 41K, 3.23ERA, 1.128WHIP

    Fuentes has got that closer™ marking though, so he’d bring in a lot more talent back than Ohman.

  12. Not sure why Tex’s numbers are misleading. Right now he is 30th in all of MLB in OPS. On some teams that would be their best hitter. On most, that would be their second best hitter (we just happen to have 2 great hitters). At this level, he is slightly below his career OPS, which is above .900. A .900 OPS hitter is a star, and that is what Tex is. Look, Fred McGriff played 4 full seasons here, and he didn’t have an OPS of .900 in 3 of those seasons.

    On top of that, Tex plays his position extremely well, and he is very durable.

    Tex may not be Chipper, but you get one of those every 15 years or so. In pining for the next Chipper, I hope we don’t overlook the 2nd best hitter we have had here, the last 20 years.

  13. Yeah, and Tex is also the kind of guy you want to build around.

    He ain’t the problem. He could be a big part of the solution.

    Oh, and Jeff Shultz knows nothing, NOTHING!

  14. Bfan, OPS isn’t everything. Park and league context matter too. Fred McGriff’s career OPS+ — after a decline phase, which Teixeira has yet to undergo — is 134, 3 points higher than Tex.

  15. a big part of the solution is correct. Assuming Chipper has to decline at some point, as amazing as he is, and McCann is going to slide as catchers do (all that wear and tear), exactly who do we build around? We have NO top prospect who has been as high as AA for the whole year, and our best prospects are 19 year olds who probably will make it to the show, maybe in 2-3 years (and show me a “can’t miss prospect” and I will introduce you to Andy Marte and Jeff Francouer). Escobar and Kelly Johnson are pretty good, but you don’t win championships (you don’t even sniff .500) if that is your best player.

  16. fair enough on whether Tex can catch and stay up with McGriff (Tex may have his decline in front of him, but he may have a few best years, as well), but total up McGriff’s stay here and Tex’s, and Tex (over just over a year, I know), is better.

    And even if you can’t get there (that Tex is better than McGriff), the discussion is then whether Tex is the second best or the third best hitter here in the last 20 years, behind only the best 3B in the history of the game. That’s who you want to heave, so that Scott Thurmond or another no strike zone judgment player like Casey Kotchman can come in, to make the middle of your line-up an out factory?

  17. braves 14, Chad Tracy & Tony Clark are at 1B for the DBacks. Conor Jackson has been playing left field since Brynes got hurt, FYI. There is no way they would trade CoJack for two months + of Tex, because they would have no place to play him. If Tex went to the DBacks, which I don’t think is that insane of an idea, it would certainly have to be for Tracy plus something else. Who knows how much they would be willing to give up because there would be no way they would resign him, but I know they have been looking long and hard to improve the offense, I know they’ve at least discussed it.

    A lot of deals with the DBacks (Haren & Valverde this off season, for example) come out of nowhere, so Tex to the DBacks wouldn’t shock me at all. He’d be the perfect rental for them.

  18. Tex numbers are misleading b/c he basically did nothing for most of the 1st half when Chipper and Yunel were on base all those games. Tex is indeed a good player, not saying he isn
    t, I just wish he would have been a little more consistent this year when the Braves were still pretending to be a contender.

    My deal with JC Romero comes when he shuts down Chipper, Tex and of course the rest of the Braves when he comes out of the bullpen. Not comparing him to no other pitcher.

  19. What are the Astros thinking trading for Wolf? Do they somehow think they’re in it? I hope Wren doesn’t drink any of the Kool-Aid they are slurping over there in Houston.

  20. Tex is the second best or the third best hitter here in the last 20 years, behind only the best 3B in the history of the game.

    We had Mike Schmidt?

  21. The issue with Tex, I think, isn’t whether he is a good player and worth signing long-term. Obviously, he is, regardless of what Jeff Schultz thinks. The issue is (1) whether the Braves have a ghost of a chance of signing him, and (2) if they do, whether it makes sense, given their payroll, to tie up that kind of money in one player who, although very good, isn’t, say, Albert Pujols. The issue of worth is pretty relative–it’s what you can afford. Teixera has struggled somewhat at times this year but, obviously it’s going to be very difficult for the the Braves to find someone else that can replace his production.

  22. Hey, in that last thread someone wanted to trade Kotsay.

    Damn, I want to sell but jeez…

    What might we get, Julian Tavarez, oh wait…

    :)

  23. It was me, Chief. Kotsay isn’t any good but there are worse players playing regularly, and he still has a good defensive reputation even though he’s slower than Francoeur’s synapses. As has been pointed out, he’d be a huge upgrade for the Dodgers. Or the Twins — centerfield in Minnesota is a disaster. More likely, he’d be a good fourth outfielder for a good team. Which brings us back to our point of agreement — our outfield sucks.

  24. Good point, hell I’d take him for a AAAA basher with no upside if he could hold a glove and play LF or RF for a couple years until we can stabilize this franchise.

  25. I was thinking more “miscellaneous live arm”. I doubt that the Braves would offer Kotsay arbitration, and I also doubt that he would be a Type A free agent — so if you’re going to get anything for him, it better be in the next week.

  26. Yeah I almost typed a pitching prospect with some tools, but raw, but I was too tired and Deadliest Catch caught my ear.

  27. @14 No worries, I hope the same goes for you. Always enjoy the posts.

    I’m fine with FJM’s attack on DOB. His column’s argument, in the end, revolved around this line of reasoning – “But I know an impact offensive player, a player whose performance seems bigger than his numbers because he gets so many key hits. And I know the opposite.” – which is stupid and illogical and exactly the kind of thing those guys tear apart. There are many many reasons not to sign Teixeira to a huge, longterm contract, but none of those reasons emerged in the article. Personally, I could care less about DOB anyway. Give me Sekou Smith any day (yesterday, for instance, he excoriates the Hawks’ management without mercy, something someone outside this community should be doing to the Braves management).

  28. I’m almost to the point where I can’t even get annoyed by the usage of HWS. I feel like I should because we’ll be stuck with him if Braves management continues to think he is a fan favorite. What will it take for whoever is in charge of that decision to decide we need an upgrade in RF?

  29. What are the Astros thinking trading for Wolf? Do they somehow think they’re in it? I hope Wren doesn’t drink any of the Kool-Aid they are slurping over there in Houston.

    As I wrote before, the Astros have ‘one player away’ disease, which requires them to do stuff like this and dooms them to mediocrity. We’ve shown several warning signs of having OPA, hopefully we won’t have a relapse this year at the trade deadline.

  30. teix suix,,,,,,,,,,,,i know, i know, hes a pretty good player but i just dont like the guy. dump him for whatever we can get. its not like its going to cost us a pennant and theres no way to re-sign him and bor-ass anyway…….let somebody else pay his prima-donna ass.

  31. Well he doesn’t suck, but he’s not a 20 million dollar a year player, period.

  32. barrycuda suix,,,,,,,,,,,,i know, i know, hes a pretty good poster but i just dont like the guy. dump him for whatever we can get. its not like its going to cost us any insightful analysis and theres no way to re-sign him and bor-ass anyway…….let somebody else pay his prima-donna ass.

  33. It really bothers me that the Marlins don’t suck. They fleece their fans year after year by refusing to invest in building the team but they always manage to field a respectable squad.

  34. I really like seeing Morton pitch, hopefully he can continue to improve and become a solid starter.

  35. #45,

    Because they’ve been willing to make some bold moves and not be afraid and paralyzed by fear that they won’t work out. They continually shuttle in young talent by the boatloads and enough of them have panned out that they’re pretty good.

  36. No offense but speechless.

    I didn’t imagine I still can see the comments like “Jeffy, if you have to look upwards to see the ball, don’t swing
    “.

    There’s no future in the Braves. How come? I leave the rest to your imagination.

  37. lol mac……………i grew up in Dade County but i cant name one Marlins fan. for course for most of that time that i lived there, there wasnt even a team in Atlanta.

  38. @ 48

    I would characterize their moves as cynical. It’s easy to to be fearless about trading away established talent when Loria doesn’t care if the team competes. They lost Dombrowski to Detroit and just kept on truckin. It’s amazing to me that they play as well as they do with virtually no money invested. God help us all if they ever decide to spend any money.

  39. Absolutely mind boggling. He literally CAN’T layoff the pitch at his eyeballs. It’s not a matter of won’t or isn’t….CAN’T…it’s the only explanation at this point.

  40. I assume that was the worst AB I’ve ever seen. I mean, “I don’t want to be over-dramatic here” – but I really do think that was worthy of Frenchy’s greatest hits. If you know what I mean.

  41. Anyone else on the team with no prolonged track record of real major league success…be it Escobar, Johnson or Blanco…would be gone if they were doing what Francoeur is doing.

  42. 60 — Francoeur is swinging at every shoulder-high pitch he sees, which is why he has 2 Ks in 2 ABs tonight.

  43. Mac: He swung at three pitches at eyeball level to strikeout (hey…he fouled one of em off at least!)….the same pitch he struckout on the at-bat before.

  44. Mac, he swung at the first two shoulder-high pitches and missed. He “fought off” the second shoulder-high pitch. Then he struck out on the fourth shoulder-high pitch. Which may have been up to his face. It was pitiful.
    And if we get nothing out of this…

  45. I remember on the Simpsons once where Homer and Marge were shown a diagram that demonstrated how all students around Bart were pulled into his vortex of underachievement … that applies for those who follow Francoeur in the lineup.

  46. I have only slightly more confidence in Kelly then Jeff. He sucks in the big situation too and that is a problem.

  47. If nothing else, maybe this performacne will finally get Joe Simpson to stop trumpeting how much better he’s looked since coming back from Mississippi. (even though his numbers are even worse now than they were before and he’s never looked worse.)

    I gave up on success this year weeks ago, but that last Francoeur at-bat and squandering those baserunners has me furious right now if you can’t tell…furious.

  48. I wonder how many other players in the history of baseball have watched a pitcher walk the bases loaded and then struck out swinging at three pitches outside of the zone. That is a new level of suck.

  49. Francoeur just will not lay off that shoulder/face-high fastball. Just will not.

    I’m not good with photo doctoring.

  50. Sciambi made a good point that the three guys who have been producing were already on base and have no problem getting on base, but the Braves haven’t found anybody to drive them in. All season. Freaking Jeffy.

  51. maybe some hate fueled Frenchy photoshopping is just the kind of therapy I need.

  52. Jeffy truly has taken the title of The Vortex of Suck originally given to Vinny Castilla in his days of exceptional suckage.

  53. Wouldn’t it be kinda cool if Morton pitches a no hitter and the Braves lose 0-1 by way of an unearned run?

  54. That’s the difference between McCann and Corky. Corky wouldn’t have told him to give up a 3 run homer there.

  55. MrSwings, you might have jinxed him.

    Or maybe it was our non-existant offense and terrible team.

  56. It’s the kind of thing that gets him that reputation as a good teammate and handler of pitchers.

  57. Now Teix will probably get 20+ from some team, but there’s no way Jeffy’s making that, unless he starts playing the lottery.

  58. I don’t know about Jacobs but I’d certainly take Larry Beinfest. He’s not a Braves old boy though so I doubt it’ll happen.

  59. srsly, HWS is more likely to strand 20 million baserunners than he is to make 20 million dollars.

  60. It’s amazing how Francoeur manages to get such a critical at bat, time after time.

    If we have to suffer him, please, 8th in the order.

  61. I agree with everyone here. That was absolutely the worst AB I have ever seen. It is even magnified by the fact that the previous 3 batters all WALKED. Then to swing at the first 4 pitches – all out of the strikezone – is utterly rediculous. It almost makes me feel like I should be a big league ballplayer – I could do that crap.

  62. This team leads the league in making below average to average pitchers look like hall of famers

  63. I would spend an entire season in the minors, at lowest level of rookie ball, just so I could get a chance to play.

  64. I’m okay with losing, really I am, because we need to be sellers.

    But this is just infuriating.

  65. The thing is, the other 29 MLB teams all have terrible players too. They’re mostly in the minor leagues or riding the bench. Our worst player is being marketed as the face of the franchise and plays every game.

  66. Still the game is going on….
    I told it we’re not gonna lose if Francoeur doesn’t come up with the bases loaded. Actually he had the best chances among mlb players and blew them this year if you search the data. He ruined much things by accident or design. It’s true. Next year? I extremely negative about him. I’ve never ever thought it before like this. Woner Wall. Gosh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    I don’t believe in superstition though. He must go. I’m not gonna say I’m sorry for Francoeur’s supporters.

  67. Joe just said VanDen Hurk had already thrown 94 pitches, but no mention of an injury.

  68. Were I the hitting coach, I would tell Francoeur this:

    You will not swing in this at-bat.

    If you do swing, you will be sent to the South Atlantic League with no chance of a return.

    You will not swing, because it will ensure you cannot possibly do worse than you have been on your own.

  69. #122.

    That’s the most maddening part of this, that the ‘casual’ fans love him so much.

  70. Oh christ! The Marlins announcers just said that it appears that their catcher, Baker, is looking into the dugout for which pitch to call. Please, please don’t let this crap into MLB.

  71. On the third out: “A big-time drive,” says Boog. Were it truly “big-time,” it would have been a freaking hit.

  72. It looked like it was headed out of the park. Certainly better than his previous at-bat, which was admittedly a very low bar.

  73. Results, 136, results. I was at Saturday’s game and would have rather seen piddly Texas Leaguers drop for singles than the 395-foot outs at which we seem to specialize lately.

  74. I’m still here by the way. I just have nothing to add about this pathetic performance.

  75. Morton gives up only two hits. That makes me happy. He might be something good that we get out of this year.

  76. good news !!! the phillies new savior is getting lit up……….bad news, the mets are doing it.

  77. 141, 132 … the blind love of Francoeur at Turner Field proves what my friends who are Mets/Yankees/Cardinals/Red Sox/Reds/Giants fans say about Braves fans … I try to defend us, but then Francoeur gets squeals of delight from the crowd when he swings any pitch within the I-285 perimeter … fortunately I did hear s amattering of boos this weekend.

    Ring got cornholed. Oh, well — it’s the Marlins, and we’re seeing the Eric Gregg Memorial Fluid Strike Zone.

  78. This is like the fourth game of the last ten that we have been no hit through 4 or 5 innings.

    How does TP still have a job again?

  79. I was thinking that when Ring intentionally walked Ross, how unjust it would be if he let the next runner walk and Morton got charged with another run.

    Nice job, Royce.

  80. KJ and Escobar have been a big part of the problem lately, too.

    Yes, I know Yesco has been injured, but his production is way down from last year and earlier in the year.

  81. I cant wait till August 12th when my baby is born and I have a reason not to watch this crap anymore.

  82. I know it’s been discussed to death, but I was thinking about this a lot lately with the buy/sell stuff: If I was Frank Wren I would not stand for Francoeur calling me out for sending him down. He would be sent back to Mississippi, and he would stay there for the rest of the season. When I broke the news to him I’d say the fact I did it 3 weeks ago is warning enough, in case he hadn’t seen his numbers on the scoreboard. In the spring he would have to earn his spot on this team. I don’t care if he is from Georgia and hits autographed balls to Denmark in his free time; if 3 outfielders outperformed him in the spring he would be on the bench or in the minors.

  83. are there still people in the world that believe that “hitting coach” is anything but a ceremonial position? when the railroads didnt really need brakemen anymore, they kept them on and it was called featherbedding………………… there was a time when coaches made as much money as most players and actually had some power……….now unless a player asks for help, no coach trying to keep his fat job is going to go screw with the swing of some young millionaire who doesnt want his help anyway.

  84. Can Wren even send Francoeur down again? Don’t get me wrong, I’d love for it to happen–again. But Wren seemed to be so undermined by the call up, or so clueless (pick your poison), that sending him down again would look even more ridiculous (and again, I’m for it anyway).

  85. This team sucks so bad that firing TP will solve nothing. I am considering not watching this team plays as long as Jeffrey is still in the Braves’ uniform.

  86. to heck with this sell business … it’s time to DONATE

    start with Francoeur, Norton, Miller, Ring, and Tavarez–TP can be donated to some team looking for a coach–they should be free to a good home

  87. maybe so, but it surely means that selling such putrid parts is futile–nothing of value will be obtained in return

  88. KC……………i once kicked stuff around the house, cursed a lot and vowed to not watch the Braves as long as Andres Thomas was the shortstop. fortunatly, my boycott didnt have to last long. good luck with yours,

  89. @ 153…I agree. It would come across as foolish but it needs to be done. I hope for all of our sakes that he was undermined (isn’t that sad) because if Wren’s glasses are that heavily tinted with roses that he actually thought it was the right decision…then we’re in for a bumpy ride.

  90. No love for the latest photoshop Jeffy?

    Aww come on, that shit was gold, Jerry…gold.

    (Why do they call it ovaltine? The mug is round…the jar is round….they should call it…roundtine.)

  91. Only Braves fans could be excited about Morton’s 6.00 ERA and K/BB ratio.

    The major thing about this fanbase that I have observed for 25+ years of fandom is that its fans almost always overrate their players and think that they are better than they really are. Especially the fringe players.

  92. This is how we know the team was ‘overachieving’ during the first two months of the season: Chipper was hitting out of his mind, the back end of the rotation was holding up well, and the bullpen was pitching really well–yet we kept losing those one-run games. Now, Chipper has come back down to earth and the kids are starting to pitch like kids again. Had this team’s record reflected the first two months pythag it would have been an illusion, and only now would the Braves be approaching .500. The morale of this story? The Braves were never very good.

  93. thats why they’re called fans, Chief. some other teams fans seem to hate their players no matter how good they are.

  94. Douglass (@163) – I thought it was good… I could laugh louder if this feeble hitting lineup didn’t have me so disgusted.

    I feel like Harry Doyle… “And the Braves drop this one, 4-to-nothing to the Marlins. For the Braves…let’s see… one hit…that’s all we got? One damn hit?”

    Ugh :( First post guys… Wish it was under better circumstances. Hopefully the Bravos can turn it around but right now, I’m having a hard time seeing how they’d do it.

  95. Kelly Johnson – ZERO extra basehits in the Month of July. That’s right, zero.

    Kelly Johnson – TWO extra basehits in his last 23 games.

    Along with Francoeur he has cost us many games over the last 20+ games. If ONE of them hit clutch every once in a while the Braves would have a couple more wins. They are both horrible right now.

  96. Tamland/jea- Looks like we were thinking the same thing… Major League is a classic :D

  97. family circus is to comic strips as Frenchy is to big league ballplayers…………i’d just as soon never see either of them again.

  98. No, Jake! KJ is AWESOME. It’s Francoeur who sucks, remember? Not only did he strike out with the bases loaded, he also vicariously caused KJ to do the exact same thing.
    KJ for MVP!

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