121 thoughts on “Snakes Why did it have to be snakes game thread: D-Backs at Braves, May 23”

  1. I can’t see why every hitter on the team isn’t crowding in with Chipper to watch tape and take advice.

  2. Brandon Webb is going to be mad on Monday. Who are we going to run out there against him?

  3. (From the previous thread)

    I am in agreement that Heyward is the only untouchable if we are getting a Peavey or an Oswalt. A lot more names come off the board for the half year rentals, though. If you put Hanson in any package of prospects, then that package is instantly better than what the Mets gave up for a full year of Santana.

    Also, if we trade for an ace, we do what it takes to keep him even if it costs us Tex.

    Agree with you on most of this, Parish, but I did want to make a couple of points:

    (1) I don’t think we can take the Santana deal as an example of the sort of deal we should expect. Santana basically demanded a trade, and Minnesota’s GM was unbelievably stupid. It’s going to take more than a Santana-like package to get any of the elite guys who are under contract for a while. Yeah, it sucks to have to give up more than the Mets did, but I think that’s the reality.

    (2) I’m not convinced we couldn’t afford both an elite starter and Teix, especially if Smoltz hangs ’em up after this season. We have a very large chunk of payroll coming off the books, and if our payroll goes up even a small amount, I think there’s room for a big pitcher contract and a big Teixeira contract.

    Of course, if an NY bidding war shoots the Teix deal into unreasonable territory (I would consider much more than $100 million in financial commitment pretty unreasonable), we won’t be able to compete, and that may be more likely than I’m willing to admit right now.

    If we’re having to decide between an ace and Teix, I honestly don’t know which I’d prefer. The ace is more rare but is also far more susceptible to serious injury.

  4. What else would we have to throw in with Francouer to get Brian Giles from San Diego?

  5. I think maybe with the salary difference that they might be willing to do a straight up challenge trade.

  6. I would not give up Frenchy for Giles. Giles is alot older, and Frenchy still has the potential to be a great hitter. Give up Lillibridge and another prospect. Don’t forget, they’ll probably be glad to get his salary off the books.

  7. No way would I want Brian Giles. He hasn’t digressed like Marcus, but IMO he’s not too far behind.

    On whether I would prefer re-signing Tex or signing an ace starter – it’s even harder to answer that given Teix’s slow start. Hopefully it will be easier to answer this in July. Getting a replacement at first is also a consideration. Canizares is having a pretty good season at Richmond so far and Thor looks to be heating up. Unfortunately, I don’t think either can fill the bill at first in Atl next year. If Canizares continues at his current pace, he may be close, but I’m not overly optimistic.

  8. I don’t think there is any doubt Tex is going to get more than $100 mill. It’s going to be a lot closer to $200 mill than it is $100 mill.

  9. Heck, why not:

    James, Hanson, Morton, Diaz, Blanco, Lillibridge, Hernandez, and Freeman

    for

    Peavy, Giles, and Maddux?

  10. I don’t think there is any doubt Tex is going to get more than $100 mill. It’s going to be a lot closer to $200 mill than it is $100 mill.

    I don’t think there’s a chance of that being true.

  11. The second sentence, that is. He may well get over $100 million, but like I said, as long as it’s not much more than that, I don’t think it’s unreasonable in the current market.

  12. Basically giving up 8 people for 1???? Giles and Maddux would only be able to help this team this year – and if we got Peavy, there is definately no need for Maddux. Maybe you are joking???

  13. The Tigers had to give up talent AND pay Miggy Cabrera and he got 8/$153. The Yanks/Mets/O’s/whoever else just have to pay him, and with the NY teams, as we know, money is not an option. Boras is going to market Tex as a “Gold Glove Cabrera” and since Cabrera just plays first these days, I just don’t see how Tex won’t get at least as many years and more AAV.

  14. Is there any reason to believe any of these guys are on the trading block or will be come July? I know the Pads are bad, but they’re not Pittsburgh bad. They don’t have any reason to trade away one of the best in the game.

    As far as Oswalt is concerned, he has digressed quite a bit. He might just be having a bad year (he might but hurt) but his K rate and velocity are down over the past couple years as well. Peavy would be worth a lot more to us. I just don’t see them trading him.

  15. Cabrera was 24 years old when they traded for him, and the prospects they gave up don’t have anything to do with his contract.

    Teixeira will be almost 29 when he signs his next deal (barring a miraculous extension!). I seriously doubt he gets even 7 years, and he’s not getting paid $25 million a year.

  16. You have to wonder if the economy will have any factor in next year’s free agent signings…..it’s bad for us, but maybe it could also sway the contracts to a more reasonable amount so we can afford Tex.

  17. Stu, that’s some pretty creative math there on your part. Cabrera’s birthday is 4/18/83 and Tex’s birthday is 4/18/80, I’m willing to bet that’s what people are going to go by instead of “when he was traded or when he signs.” The prospects didn’t have anything to do with the amount of the contract per se, but the players given up have value, and that’s certainly a factor in why the Yankees and Mets didn’t trade for him, and will wait for Tex. I would think that a team like the Mets/Yankees would rather pay an extra amount of money ($20-$30 mill) and keep
    prospects like Miller and Maybin.

  18. I seriously doubt that our economy problems will hurt the free agent market in baseball. They operate free and clear of our market as most of the revenue they rely on is from TV deals and season tickets. Everything else is gravy.

  19. Also people have never been worried about Tex eating everything that’s in sight, and there have never been any rumored attitude issues with him and they’re not even in the same ballpark when it comes to defense. I’m not saying the Braves should not resign Tex, all I’m saying is Cabrera is the bar where it starts, I’ve seen no evidence of a sweetheart deal like 5/6 for $100-$120. I could be wrong, but I can only think of one Boras client (and we all know who that is), where a player went over his head and took less money from their current team. I’m sorry, but I don’t buy Arod fits into that category.

  20. jj3bagger,
    Well, I wasn’t intending to use funny math on their ages, but yeah, I guess they’re only 3 years apart. Still, that’s really 4 years for our purposes, since the Cabrera contract began with this season. I think you drastically underestimate the value of those 4 years.

    Look, 7 years at $20 million is $140 million. You think he’s getting (a) a longer contract at that high a price, or (b) more per year for that long? I don’t.

    Mac,
    Well, I knew that, but it had slipped my mind in my exuberance today. That takes the luster off a bit, I guess, but if it’s not considered “serious,” I’d still covet him.

    Joshua,
    I wasn’t joking. It would hardly be 8-for-1, as both Maddux and Giles would be extremely helpful in this year’s playoff run. Even in future years, a strong Peavy would mitigate most of the loss we’d feel from those prospects. Actually, that almost certainly wouldn’t be enough to get those 3 from the Padres.

    I’m not getting much work done today.

  21. Instead of blowing our metaphorical load on Glavine, we should have made a play for Bedard or Haren.

  22. Again, if you don’t think 24-year-old Miguel Cabrera is more valuable to a baseball team than 28-year-old Mark Teixeira, I think you’re ignoring how valuable those 4 years are.

    Teixeira is a solid defender at the easiest position on the diamond, whereas Cabrera is a bad defender at the easiest position on the diamond (and was thought to at least be a capable 3B when he signed). The defensive difference is hardly worth mentioning.

    The weight thing is an issue, but (1) Cabrera showed up in good shape this year (I can’t remember if that happened before the extension or not), and (2) I don’t think that makes up for the 4-year age difference.

    And I have no idea what you’re referencing as far as the attitude thing, but whatever issue Cabrera may have had, I have to think the fact that I haven’t heard about it indicates it’s not a big enough deal to factor much into the contract negotiations.

  23. great episode – fake firing! I love it when Michael clears out the room and starts crying

  24. Instead of blowing our metaphorical load on Glavine, we should have made a play for Bedard or Haren.

    Yes. Seems like we could have afforded to sign Glavine and traded for one of those guys, actually. Especially if we didn’t trade for Kotsay.

    (NOTE: That is not intended as a shot at Kotsay. All I’m saying is that Bedard/Haren > Kotsay.)

  25. I didn’t like the Glavine signing because A) we gave up a first round draft pick to a division rival for one year of production from a 42 year old pitcher, and B) we’ll be in the same position next offseason of needing another SP.

    You get a Bedard or Haren to pair with Hudson, and the top of your rotation is set for the next 3-4 years.

  26. I didnt mind the Glavine signing because there wasnt much available on the FA market that was affordable AND reasonable. We didnt have much in the way of trading chips to land a starter, espicially since we needed a CF. Had our rotation gone as planned, we wouldnt be depending on Glavine to be a top tier starter.

  27. Oh, OK. Well, I guess it doesn’t surprise me that something a 22-year-old did in 2005 and was apparently not a problem afterward didn’t stop a team from investing a significant amount of money in him in 2008. Do you really think Cabrera would have been offered more than 8/153 if not for the story behind that article?

    Jeremy,
    I go back and forth on the draft pick thing. If it were any other team, I don’t think I’d think too much about the pick, but the fact that it’s the Mets that get it is incredibly annoying to me.

  28. It’s fair to say I may be underestimating those four years, but when you’re going in the wrong direction in terms of physical condition, you tend to not age as gracefully either, and I think that factors in as well.

    I think you’re underestimating the prospects and their value in terms of what teams would give up in terms of $$$ instead of prospects.

  29. I think you’re underestimating the prospects and their value in terms of what teams would give up in terms of $$$ instead of prospects.

    Well, I’m certainly not giving it any weight, so, to the extent I should be, you’re absolutely right.

    The Tigers gave up the prospects for (1) a pre-FA season of Miggy’s services (or was it two seasons? I can’t remember how many arb years he had left) and (2) an exclusive 1- (or 2-) year window to sign him to a long-term deal.

    I just don’t see that the ensuing long term deal had anything to do with the prospects.

  30. Just saying. I actually thought the contract was a smart signing by Detroit at the time, but the jury’s clearly out on that one right now. He could be the next Manny Ramirez, but he’s gonna have to keep his head out of his butt.

  31. Sweet mother, the Braves signed Cox to a one year extension? So much for hoping for retirement. I honestly don’t think I can stand another season of the decision making I’ve seen thus far this year.

  32. They bought out two years of arbitration. I think you’re still misunderstanding my point. Take the names out of it, if you have player X, who you’re going to have to acquire by giving up your two top prospects, as well as other minor leaguers, and then you’re going to have to sign to a long term extension or risk losing him, or you have player Y, who will cost you $$ and probably two draft picks, that’s going drastically reduce your amount of teams that are willing to sign player X vs. player Y. That’s all I’m saying, that when you have more teams competing and willing to just pay Tex rather give up prospects AND pay Cabrera, that’s going to drive the price up. Does anybody else agree with me or am I off my rocker ??

  33. Cabrera’s in the discussion for “best player in baseball”. Tex ain’t.

    Also, it’s worth noting that Cabrera’s deal included a year or two of arbitration.

    FWIW, I think Tex will get a deal of comparable size because he’ll been on the open market instead of just dealing with one team.

  34. I just can’t see an 8-year commitment to a player who’ll be 29 next season. I think the biggest contract Teix could possibly get would be something like 6/150. I guess I shouldn’t be surprised by any baseball contract, though.

  35. Tex certainly will be in discussions for the best player in baseball if he finishes this season like he did last season – that was unreal. Besides, first base is supposed to be the premier power position on your team – if we don’t have Tex, who are we going to get to be our “power bat” at first.

  36. You gotta assume that the Hampton 15 million will be cleared. So will Tommy glavines 8 or so. Thats 23 Million. Mccann is locked up. Johnson is not expensive nor is Escobar. Jones is locked up. Perhaps he could make yet ANOTHER sacrafice financially for the good of the team. Kotsay could be back for the right price, otherwise he has inexpensive younger substitutes in the minors. Frenchy will want an extension. But all in all we should be clear some payroll. If they give them some room to wiggle in adding payroll, we could definatley swing Tex and some other parts, which could be exciting for the long haul

  37. Brayan Pena designated for assignment, Braves’ career likely over.

    But hey, the Braves still got Corky Miller!

  38. Lots of arbitration raises next year, though, including Francoeur, KJ, and Diaz. McCann’s and Soriano’s salaries jump by over $6 million, combined. No idea what will happen with Smoltz’s salary—he could retire or he could cost less than this year’s $14 million.

  39. I don’t understand the Pena move. Not that he had any future on a team that prefers backup catchers who have no skills whatsoever but get along with the pitchers, but why now? Why not leave him on the DL? Do they need to clear a 40-man spot?

  40. Hard to get too worked up about a back-up catcher when your starter is a 24-year-old All-Star, but I am somewhat surprised at how little Pena is valued. And not just by the Braves—if anyone else valued him, we’d have traded him instead of DFA’d him.

  41. Good point, Mac. Maybe they’re clearing a spot for Erik Bedard.

    This won’t affect Escobar at all, will it? I mean, I’d like to think a mature professional athlete would remain relatively unfazed by personal stuff, but who knows? I’m sure the Braves thought of this, of course.

  42. To be clear, they have 72 hours (I think it’s 72) to trade him — Norton, for example, was DFAd and then traded. But his price will obviously be less this way.

  43. any chance the Braves try and lock up Escobar this offseason? I wouldnt bet on this being Glavine’s last year either. Its not like we have a couple of ML ready guys waiting in the wings for next year, two years maybe

    Im not surprised to see Bobby come back. he just turned 67 and I wouldnt be surprised to see him here until 70

  44. Yeah, that’s true. And now that I think about it, I wouldn’t really expect him to be considered more valuable than Norton is.

  45. Kelly Johnson eighth again? I guess he can get on base so that the pitcher can bunt, just like Bowman wrote.

  46. tiny url is a website. You go there and there’s a box where you put the url you want to link, hit the button, and they give you a unique, randomly generate “tiny url” that redirects to the site you want to link. It’s pretty self-explanatory once you get to the website.

    I’m not surprised about Pena. He’s just not very good at either catching or hitting. I think we’ve got 10 days to do something with him. I can only assume that the Braves moved him off the DL because he was healthy and they didn’t want to stall his “career” by letting him just sit there. This way, he’ll either get traded to someone who wants to put him on their ML roster, claimed on waivers and put on a ML roster, or signed to play a in the minors somewhere.

    Gut says the latter, but I wouldn’t be surprised to see someone grab him off waivers to do something with him.

  47. good to have Skip doing the tv tonight

    I agree w/ previous posts about Pena being dfa–it seems like a dumb move relative to dumping Corky or keeping Pena stashed on the DL but it’s hard to get too worked up about.

    Jo Jo’s contol issues are back; let’s hope he settles down.

  48. Shadow Jo-Jo showed up tonight.

    I guess this is one of those that go in the loss column.

  49. I wrote DOB… He thinks that the Braves were trying to get Pena’s name out there for a trade. They’ve been trying to trade him for months, of course.

  50. I prefer KJ lower in the order after all his success there. I like Kotsay in the 2 hole, despite that 0-6 performance recently.

  51. Sigh; end of that inning was kind of unfortunate.

    Both the ground ball right to the pitcher and Upton’s nice play.

  52. I dunno; Davis isn’t fooling anybody but Francoeur, and four runs just isn’t a ton with our lineup. But we don’t really wanna have to hit the front end of their bullpen; Lyons and Qualls in particular have been nasty all year.

  53. This pitcher throws slop. He sucks, I’m especially disappointed in Teix today. He should be mashing the hell out of those weak pitches.

  54. Maybe we’re taking it easy on him since it’s his first start since cancer. I’d like to believe that but our history this year speaks otherwise.

  55. This also happened to be the only Dbacks pitcher we had any hope in hell of beating.

  56. Tommy Hanson is getting hit hard again tonight. Soriano’s scheduled to pitch in that game at some point, though he didn’t pitch in the first inning (unlike Wednesday).

  57. He’s also demonstrating that he will be joining Pena on the DFA list soon.

  58. I had hoped that Resop would lower his ERA so that he could be the player to be named later for Norton. Now I realize that this morning I got up to watch him pitch batting practice.

    I hope Booby gives Stockman a chance to pitch…

  59. Wow, as somebody who has watched every DBack game this season, the Braves certainly couldn’t have hoped to get them at a better time, as terrible as they played against the Marlins. Couple that with Davis making his first start back, I was certainly optimistic for a Braves victory tonight. I think the Diamondbacks are the best team in the NL and this was the Braves best shot at a win in the series, and they did not show up tonight, very disappointing.

  60. Don’t know if this has been posted, but the Braves website has a new poll up, asking which offseason acquisition has had the most impact. One of the choices is Will Ohman. I found that amusing.

  61. jj, you really think we had a better chance vs the lefty Davis than Owings? I figured Owings was the one we should expect to win, particularly given it was JoJo tonight.

  62. But we play against Owings on Sunday, aka “put a randomly generated batting order together with 4 regulars including Chipper and McCann on the bench day”

  63. I wasn’t counting on Davis pitching all that well his first start back and I was counting on Owings hitting another two homers, just kidding. Owings was pitching with a bad ankle against the Padres and the Mets, in which he gave up 11 of his 24 ER on the year. You take out those two starts and his “healthy” numbers are 5-0 with a 2.54 ERA, not too shabby.

  64. Chipper and Tex are out. WTF is McCann still doing in the game? It’s probably the bit about having only 1 backup catcher and having a fear that he’ll get hurt. I say save the wear and tear on McCann–he’s caught more innings than almost every other catcher

  65. Well, just in case we score ten runs in the next two innings and it goes into extra innings and nobody can score, Stockman will be available to pitch the fifteenth.

  66. braves14–I’m thinking the same thing

    “… Stockman will be available to pitch the fifteenth after Boyer finishes his fifth inning of work

  67. This is truly bizarre. McCann is getting the Russell Martin treatment this year and getting abused, there is no reason for him at all to still be in the game. Is Corky planning on catching tomorrow ? I sure as hell hope not. What happened when Bobby always used to have a guy called up and get him work to show that he had confidence in him ? Stockman must have ran over Bobby’s dog or something. He’s the anti-Boyer. Makes no damn sense at all.

  68. Since I have to watch the DBacks feed (which I actually don’t mind that much because most of the time Don Sutton’s son, Daron and Mark Grace are pretty entertaining), but anyway, I think you have to really tip your hat to Doug Davis tonight. The guy had surgery for freaking cancer a month ago. They just had his dad in the booth, and that was a pretty emotional moment, he almost lost it on the air talking about how proud of his son he is.

  69. come on Phil, let’s have a good outing–your Braves Journal fans are pulling for you

  70. So I’ve got to say, I don’t think JoJo pitched quite as poorly as his line would indicate. Sure, he gave up three home runs. And that was pretty awful. And the walks were also bad. But other than that, he didn’t give up a ton of hard-hit balls. That double in the first was the weakest-hit double I’ve ever seen. And he had some pretty poor defensive work behind him. Chipper had an uncharacteristic mis-throw coming in on a weakly-hit grounder that lead to run scoring that really shouldn’t have. And they had some hits that just seemed to bloop in.

    The fifth inning in particular, where Reyes started out by giving up a solo shot then struck out two and induced a weak grounder was indicative of his performance. He either got hit hard or was more or less effective.

    I’m still optimistic about his future and want him to get at least another start before we do anything drastic.

  71. So I’ve got to say, I don’t think JoJo pitched quite as poorly as his line would indicate. Sure, he gave up three home runs. And that was pretty awful. And the walks were also bad. But other than that …

    … how was the play Mrs Lincoln?

  72. I for some reason had totally forgotten that Stockman used to be Diamondback property.

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