This is a bad deal

ESPN.com – MLB – Red Sox deal Renteria to Braves for 3B prospect

I am not as down on Renteria as some. He was both hit-unlucky and hurt last year and was still a good hitter for a shortstop. He’s yet another guy who doesn’t get on base too well, which isn’t what we need, but I expect he’ll give the Braves above-average offense and defense for the next couple of years. At least this keeps them from having to go through this again next year. Andrus or Escobar should be ready in 2008.

But Andy Marte… Good God. This is a special prospect. His floor is Matt Williams. His ceiling is the Hall of Fame. I mean, he probably won’t make the Hall, but it’s a possibility. The Braves just got fleeced. If Marte’s stock wasn’t as high as we thought, they should have just hung onto him and traded two guys to get Renteria or Lugo.

It’s unclear how much money the Red Sox will pick up. Apparently, Renteria will get $8 million this year and $12 million the next two, the last being an option year, and will pick up some money in 2007 and the buyout cost in 2008, but that isn’t confirmed.

333 thoughts on “This is a bad deal”

  1. What are Marte’s stats for the brief time he spent with the club this past season? Why did Betemit, not he, get most of the playing time at third while Chipper was out? Remember, at one time Betemit was hailed as being the second coming of Alex Rodriguez, so prospects are just that and nothing more until they prove themselves on the major league field. I guess the Braves don’t think Marte will develop into the player they once thought he would be, for why else would they trade him? I’m just saying.

  2. Mac, are you buying into my propaganda…or is it PrOPSaganda. (Sorry, sorry, sorry. Ouch!…Ok, I deserved that.)

  3. Hall of Fame? Huh? What has he ever done in the bigs? I mean, I want to keep good prospects as much as the next Braves fan, but let’s not go out of our minds here.

  4. This is like….historically bad. This trade won’t look good NEXT year, much less ten years from now. I can’t believe this just happened.

  5. Okay, the point here is that you don’t deal away top prospects for high priced players coming off of a regression year. This deal might be a good one though, Renteria could be a solid No. 2 guy, and maybe can get his stock up, while Escobar and Andrus get their feet wet in the minors for a year or two more.

    Hopefully that dollar amount will leak out soon.

  6. Betemit got more playing time because he was further along in his development and he was having a solid season.

  7. This trade is a bitter pill to swallow. Renteria, if he’s kept 3 years, totals $32 million (assuming we get no cash from the Sox). So we traded Marte and Furcal for Renteria and $7 million over three years. That’s just terrible.

  8. “This is like….historically bad. This trade won’t look good NEXT year, much less ten years from now. I can’t believe this just happened.”

    How can it look bad next year. The Red Sox traded their starting shortstop for a guy that will start in AAA. The Braves have a new starting shortstop in exchange for a guy who had no position to play. Could be a different story in 5 years but next year it can’t hurt the Braves.

  9. We’re getting money from the Sox, and there’s no guarantee he’ll be here for the entire duration of it, so everyone needs to calm down. As much as I hate to say it, it seems like this board is more upset about the loss of Marte than the loss of Furcal, which seems completely baseless.

    He has great potential, but until he breaks out, potential is all it is.

    The Sox just traded away their own Andy Marte, Hanley Ramirez to the Marlins. We’ll just have to wait and see.

  10. Betemit becomes more important now than ever, since he backs up two individuals who were hurt last year and who are likely to be hurt at points in the next two years. So deserving or not of a chance to start, we need Wilson badly as insurance.

  11. I wanted to keep Marte and I’ve never been enamored by Renteria, but I have to admit the posters that have said that Marte is without a position might be right. I guess you have to look at this as a bird in the hand, I hope it doesn’t crap all over our fingers.

  12. I posted this in the other thread by mistake :)

    Renteria comes through in the clutch with GIDP.
    Watch him make a historic run for Vinny Castilla’s record..

    Hanley Ramirez?!! He hasnt put up numbers as good as Marte’s even for one season..

  13. One more thing, earlier in the week, it was speculated we would get Julio Lugo for Marte, this has to be a better deal for the Braves.

  14. This will look bad next year because Marte has nothing left to prove in the minors, and will likely put up better MLB numbers than Renteria next year.

    Seriously, Marte is the kind of guy you MAKE room for.

  15. It would help if the “voices of reason” knew at least a little bit about what they were talking about. I will be the first person to admit I’m not objective about Andy Marte. I have a huge, awkward man-crush on him. That said, I know what he has done in the past and, based on that, can reasonably project future performance. I can do the same about Edgar Renteria.

    Those who want us to trust Schuerholtz have good precedent for doing so, and normally I’m one of them. However, this trade features extraordinary circumstances. Marte is NOT “just another prospect” and it is just silly to think of him as “unproven.” He didn’t hit well in 57 at bats. Hell, Andruw had a stretch just last year when he only had two or three hits in as many at bats! Marte is the best hitting prospect we’ve had since Andruw – better than Furcal, better than Giles, better than Francouer.

    Here’s another way of thinking about this trade. The Red Sox don’t have a backup shortstop on their roster or even someone they could plug in from the minors. Their next best option currently in-system, Dustin Pedroia, might not even be able to play SS in the majors.

    Compare that with the Braves situation. We _know_ that Betemit can play SS. He might not be good. He might make mental mistakes. He will not be nearly as good as Furcal. But we have with our own two eyes seen him not fall on his face. In other words, the Braves without Renteria had a better SS replacement than do the Red Sox without Renteria! They are now in the same boat we were in. And yet they are fine with this – why? Because Andy Marte is worth it!

    I would LOVE to be proven wrong about this trade. I will pray that will happen. But I am deathly afraid that I won’t be.

  16. As much as I hate to say it, it seems like this board is more upset about the loss of Marte than the loss of Furcal, which seems completely baseless.

    Well, the thing is, we all knew Furcal was gone months ago. It would have been a nice surprise gift if he came back, but that bridge was crossed a long while back.

    One more thing, earlier in the week, it was speculated we would get Julio Lugo for Marte, this has to be a better deal for the Braves.

    If the money ends up as equal, then yes. Otherwise, not at all.

  17. I know Renteria had a down year in Boston but he obviously had trouble adjusting which hurt his production. So when did Julio Lugo become a better option than Renteria. Lugo is solid with comparable numbers as Furcal but Renteria has come up big with the Marlins in the WS and with the Cardinals. He will come up big for us this October as well. That is my prediction.

  18. SoSH guys think they may swap Marte for Lugo and Baez. If that goes down we should form an army amd march on Tampa. They wouldn’t give us Lugo for Marte, why would they give an interdivision team two players for the same guy they wouldn’t give us one for, doesn’t add up.

  19. I don’t think the Sox made the trade because they are in love with Marte, I think they made the trade because they know other teams are in love with Marte and they can spin him off to someone else, like Marte and Shoppach and whoever to the Rays for Lugo and Huff or Lugo and Baez.

  20. I see all of the “Believe is JS” is just talk that goes on, on this board. If JS is the GM that every other GM is measured by than you have to figure this move will not hurt the Braves as much as some on this board are saying. Marte was not going to make our team this year, unless Chipper got hurt, so this year it should be a deal very favorable for the Braves. Also, according to Baseball America, Braves has a prospect in A/AA ball that is as solid as Marte at a similar time. To strenghten a weakness you trade from strenght, that is what we did. Marte who ?

  21. Sports Illustrated has this in their article:

    “The move leaves Boston without a shortstop amid speculation that it will trade Marte to the Tampa Bay Devil Rays for Julio Lugo.”

    So, um, does TB want Marte, or not?

  22. He will come up big for us this October as well. That is my prediction.
    you mean when we are wrapping our season up playing some meaningless game..

    Lugo vs Renteria : Lugo has slightly better numbers but he is going to be cheap for only 1 year. So if we feel that Andrus/Escobar ar emore than one year away, we have to go with renteria. Though I have a feeling the reason we didn’t Lugo was that the D-Rays GMs were smoking some good shit

  23. I think the Rays wanted Marte and a catcher. They weren’t getting any of ours, but they can get Marte and Shoppach from the Sox.

  24. “This will look bad next year because Marte has nothing left to prove in the minors, and will likely put up better MLB numbers than Renteria next year.

    Seriously, Marte is the kind of guy you MAKE room for.”,

    What do you think the Braves have been trying to do the past year? They tried multiple times to move his position and it just didn’t happen. They tried to MAKE room for him and couldn’t so they did the next best thing and traded him. Also, Marte will probably start next year in AAA.

  25. Put it this way, if we had just traded Francoeur for Renteria, everyone would be just freaking out. And Marte is better than Francoeur RIGHT NOW, much less for the future.

  26. Remember those Old Milwaukee commercials, “It doesn’t get any better than this.” This is like the Bizarro-world version of that.

  27. I would LOVE to be proven wrong about this trade.
    I would love to be proven wrong if renteria puts up some magic numbers. I actually want Marte to do well.

  28. I love the Braves. I really do. Sometimes they make moves that absolutely defy common sense.

    I read the mlb.com story last night and there was a quote from Cox saying Marte was great, can play now, etc. but he’s a third baseman and Chipper’s a third baseman too.

    WHY FOR THE LOVE OF GOD CAN CHIPPER NOT MOVE TO FIRST? Our first baseman sucks. We can be charitable and call him spectacularly average. Move Chipper to left for Vinny the poo, of the sucking vortex or whatever we decided on as a name, and now, now that there is a long-term viable replacement and an infield spot for Chipper to move, we move our top prospect so Chipper can miss balls hit at his forehead when he’s 36????

    I don’t fccking get it.

  29. Gawd. I think gryn made the best point. Unless we get 12M from the BoSox, we should have just kept Furcal. I get the impression that Furcal’s agent really screwed us on this one. I mean, Furcal will probably be better than Renteria over the next three years, and we likely could have got him for something on the measure of 3/33 or 4/40, which is only paying slightly more. AND WE’D GET TO KEEP MARTE! I hate to say it, but at this point, it seems like Schurholtz has really botched this off-sesaon. I’ll reserve judgement until it’s over, but unless Renteria returns to his peak form or Marte has a tragic accident, I really don’t see how this sequence of events can turn out well for us.

  30. you mean when we are wrapping our season up playing some meaningless game..

    Unbelievable and inexcusable

  31. I like this trade. I’m not sold on Marte yet, and we got the best shortstop available who will be signed for three years. They said the Red Sox would kick in about 11 million. And we can trade him again later for more prospects once Escobar or Andrus is ready. You also gotta go by Scheurholz’s track record. He’s rarely given up value without getting some kind of value in return.

  32. Lugo is not a better option than Renteria, but both are bad options if the cost is Marte. Marte didn’t hit 10 homers in his first 100 major league at bats like Francoeur did, but this is a guy who has been better at every stage of development than Francoeur, and been younger to boot. Marte has far more value than this.

  33. Yeah, he might start in AAA(for a month and a half). But when he eventually gets called up, he is gonna slug .480+. The guy is a freaking monster. The guy is Delmon Young level good. If he hadn’t been a FA, and had instead been in the draft, and had been a #1 pick, you’d be much more upset, but that is just semantics. He is that good.

    frankly, if Chipper doesn’t want to move positions, then let Marte play 1B. I don’t care, let Marte play SS. But don’t trade him. When hes putting up 35HR years we will bemoan trading him, I’m just doing it now.

  34. It would help if the “voices of reason” knew at least a little bit about what they were talking about

    So you would have kept Marte and played him in AAA. Yeah, that makes sense.

  35. Marte is an exceptional player. I’m going to vomit every time I see him make one of his ten all-star teams. I won’t be able to watch the Braves/Sox “rivalry” games. JS just pissed away a guy who will be one of the greats.

  36. I am not excited about Renteria at all. His numbers, even in good hitters parks are not stellar. His defense used to be great, but now ???? (was last year’s awful defense purely a product of being “unhappy” in Boston? If so, we all better pray that he really loves Atlanta or else 30+ errors).) A professional player plays whether they are loved or not. I can’t get over last year and Renteria’s decline over the last few seasons.

    I do agree that for this year, this won’t hurt Atlanta too much. I just don’t see the wisdom longterm. We all can speculate now, but time will tell and I seriously hope I am wrong on this one.

  37. Put it this way, if we had just traded Francoeur for Renteria, everyone would be just freaking out. And Marte is better than Francoeur RIGHT NOW, much less for the future.

    I think that you might be the one that was smoking some shit JP. Last time I checked, Francoeur was a legitimate Rookie of the Year candidate, who nearly led the league in outfield assists in like half a season.

    Marte hit about .167 in his call up.

    So saying that Marte is better than Francoeur is just dumb as hell. And just btw, we already have a third baseman who will put up your “Marte-like” numbers and then some next year. If Marte had moved to the outfield successfully last year like they had hoped, we wouldn’t even be having this discussion, now would we?

  38. I mean, I love JS, think the Braves organization has been run near perfectly for the last 10 or so years of my fandom(even the Kolb trade was a good one at the time). But I’m just not a fan of this.

  39. So I’m done. This is the kind of stupid panic move teams like the Mets and the Dodgers make. I can’t root for a team like that. After twenty years with the Braves, I’m a free agent.

    Thanks for all the work you put into the site Mac, I’ve really enjoyed reading it the last few years. Hopefully I wasn’t too much trouble.

  40. Well Renteria did have a .394 OBP 2 years ago. I’m not a fan of this trade either, but I wonder if this was after that year he had in 2003, would opinions be a little diferent?

  41. Korobeiniki, seriously, remember your stance on this 5 years down the road. And look at Marte compared to Francoeur then.

    Oh, and be civil. No reason to say I am smoking anything nor that my ideas are dumb.

  42. Potential or addressing the needs of the team now?

    I would’ve rather had a deal for Crawford or another speedy left-fielder… But for God’s sakes, it was getting to the point where JS just had to show that the organization isn’t hibernating through the offseason. And he’s done so, and picked up a solid player in the interim. Renteria is still going to be one of the best shortstops in the National League next year.

  43. if Marte had moved to the outfield successfully last year like they had hoped,

    Who is sprading this misinformation? Last winter, they had him shag a few balls in the OF, and scrapped the plan within 3 days! He has a reputation of being a plus defender at his position btw

  44. I think there’s too many variables to accurately predict a player’s performance, especially a player with no track record in the bigs. Numbers count for a lot, but I believe to really know how good a player is you have to get a sense of his overall game after seeing him play a few games in person. I don’t know how many people here have actually watched Marte play. I never have. Therefore, the sky is not falling in my world.

  45. And just btw, we already have a third baseman who will put up your “Marte-like” numbers and then some next year.

    You honestly believe that Chipper’s going to be healthy all season? I don’t – he’s been hurt for what, three straight season now? He’s breaking down.

    And Francouer got lucky when he was called up. He’s good, likely to have a great career, but his hot start hid the fact that he tailed off badly after that. I’d be pleased if we get a .260 average and 20-25HR out of him this season.

  46. 2003 looks like a very obvious peak year for Renteria. Bizarro world Renteria isn’t coming back. we are getting the 90 OPS+ guy, not the 130.

  47. Last time I checked, Francoeur was a legitimate Rookie of the Year candidate, who nearly led the league in outfield assists in like half a season.

    Marte hit about .167 in his call up.

    So saying that Marte is better than Francoeur is just dumb as hell.

    Yeah. Because 100 ABs is a really good predictor of future performance, never mind the fact that Marte was absurdly unlucky with his BABIP and his consistant stream of top-teir minor league performances.

  48. Some are dragging down Marte but I do not want to be put in that boat. Marte was a great prospect but his lack of position necessitated a move.

  49. nyb – I don’t know you and I’m not for calling anyone out on a message board. I mean this in the least confrontational way possible, but if you are serious about turning your back on your favorite team of 20 years because they made a bad trade – well – we have a differing opinion of what it is to be a fan.

  50. From foxsports.com The deal, first reported by ESPN, also includes a sizeable cash payment, believed to be about $11 million, from the Red Sox that will cover part of Renteria’s remaining salary.
    The cash in the deal would reduce the Braves commitment to Renteria over the next three years to approximately $6 million per season.

  51. Yeah, but sometimes you need to make moves for right now when the future’s taking too long to get here. The guy couldn’t switch positions, and we have a team leader and a guy that is all for the organization at third. Telling him to move again just wouldn’t really be fair.

    As for Marte, you may be right. Three years down the line, he might be another Pujols or anyone like that. But who knows, he could end up being Bobby Bo too. There’s no such thing as a can’t miss guy. Ask the Cubs (Prior, Wood), Red Sox (Ramirez), or any other team about that.

  52. Wow, that was a lot more money than I expected. Makes me feel a little easier and gives them more money to get a closer.

  53. Mac, I think Renteria will be a fine player for us and well worth the adjusted salary.

    I’m pissed that the main reason Marte was traded instead of some other players/prospects was to placate Chipper.

  54. As for Marte, you may be right. Three years down the line, he might be another Pujols or anyone like that. But who knows, he could end up being Bobby Bo too. There’s no such thing as a can’t miss guy. Ask the Cubs (Prior, Wood), Red Sox (Ramirez), or any other team about that.

    Yeah, the Cubs are really unhappy with Mark Prior… if we kept Marte and he performed at a Prior level, I know I would be furious.

  55. nyb did you turn your back on the Braves when they traded Millwood off a great year to a division rival for a backup catcher? You don’t deserve to be a fan of the Braves if you turn your back on them because of a bad trade. I truly hope those were some overheated emotions speaking.

  56. I’m not trying to rain on Marte’s parade, but let’s be realistic here people. He hasn’t won a Rookie of the Year, MVP, Silver Slugger, or earned an All-Star appearance yet. It just seems like some members of this board like to count their chickens before they hatch.

    Everyone ripped on Glavine on his way out, Furcal on his way out… It’s getting tiresome.

    And Marte isn’t quite as good defensively as Francoeur is. I’m still confident is this team for next year. We have plenty of good talent.

  57. Korobeiniki,
    You are right.

    Let’s just give this a chance and embrace it. WE need to be positive about Renteria, that is all we can do. He had one bad year in one of the toughest/most over rated baseball towns in America, playing for a crapy manager. Bobby will nurse him and mke him great again. Let’s just give this a chance. If we can get 2 really good years and one solid season out of this guy, and maybe get a Ring, then it will be worth giving up Marte. This makes us a better team for the next two season, at least. We need to up grade the pitching staff some and we will be on the same level as the Mets. I think this makes us a better team than we were last season if Renteria can step up and play like he is capable.

  58. If one of his examples is a little off in your opinion, Kyle, it doesn’t change his point which is a good one.

  59. The Cubs actually are kind of unhappy with Mark Prior, due to the fact that the guy just can’t seem to stay healthy. Mark my words here folks, Mark Prior might end up being the KGJ of pitching: a flash of brilliance, then struggles with bad-luck injuries.

  60. The guy couldn’t switch positions

    As was stated above, can you back this up? To the best of my knowledge, the Braves never really did anything more than have Marte shag some flies in LF for a couple of days. At no point did they make a serious effort at a position switch.

  61. Everyone ripped Furcal? Nothing I have seen.
    And personally I have no respect as a baseball person for people who boo Glavine.

  62. For the last 15 years, you know what the key to the Brave success has been? We haven’t really played for the now. We never signed the big FA(with one noticeable exception). We moved a bunch of prospects but not our elite ones(Chipper, Andruw, Furcal, even Betemit). We didn’t act like the Mets and play for the now every year. We had a longrange plan, and followed it through. We didn’t act like the streak of division titles was worth anything…adn you know what? We kept winnig. this move flys in the face of all of that. I don’t like this deal because of it’s impact on our organization(we lost a bunch of talent) but I like it less because of what it says about our organization.

  63. i hope renteria doesn’t pay attention to this site.
    he’s been labeled as “sensitive” and “one who lets criticism get to him.” he hasn’t even put on the uniform and we’re already killing him. maybe it’s time to rally.

    ahhhh, who am i kidding?
    damn this trade. i feel sick.
    this is all paul kinzer’s fault.

    where was dayton moore this week?
    is he in dallas? has he quit yet? the sox gm job is still open. i wonder if he’s having 2nd thoughts.

    oh yeah, we still don’t have a closer.

  64. As was stated above, can you back this up? To the best of my knowledge, the Braves never really did anything more than have Marte shag some flies in LF for a couple of days. At no point did they make a serious effort at a position switch.

    He would have played a different position last year if it was possible. So obviously they didn’t think it was possible. The only other option is that the Braves minor league instructors are inept when it comes to judging someone defensive talent. You take your pick.

  65. As was stated above, can you back this up? To the best of my knowledge, the Braves never really did anything more than have Marte shag some flies in LF for a couple of days. At no point did they make a serious effort at a position switch.

    They did try to move him to the outfield last year in the Fall League and it was just a disaster. Maybe he needed some time to adjust to it, but he didnt express a great interest in switching positions. You’re a kid with great potential, why wouldn’t you want to get to the big leagues how you can and prove yourself?

    But all this aside, I will miss Marte. I’ve had a lot of fun watching him play occasionally and tracking his progress. And I’ll admit that I was among the many that were gushing about what might be on its way.

    He’s gone though for now. We had the same comments last year about Capellan being traded and Wainwright the year before. Now, we just play the waiting game.

  66. How many of you have actually seen Andy Marte play more than the brief performance in the big leagues last year. In actual, regular season games? Wilson Betemit was the #1 prospect for three years (and #1 in all of baseball). Would you trade him for Renteria? Sure looks like you would now. Did anyone ever suspect that the Braves continued to pump up Marte to Baseball America to rate him #1 over Salty and others to position them to trade him (knowing that a restructured deal with Chipper was on the horizon)?

    People, this is a prospect that has done nothing at the big league level. Look at the top prospects over the last 15 years and how many make it big. The Hall of Fame? Are you kidding me? Look at the 1st round draft picks. Only 50% play for 3 years or more. Take a deep breath.

  67. As for Renteria, seriosuly, look at his stats. 3 seasons of above average offense out of 10. 2 very good seasons in 2002-2003, at his peak age. He isn’t a very good baseball player. He just isn’t.

  68. Hopefully those rumors that were floating around about Lidge still have life. So long as we don’t have to trade away half of the farm system for him.

  69. Whether or not we think Marte is going to be a superstar or not, doesn’t the fact that he was generally considered one of the top 5-10 prospects in the game indicate that we could have gotten more for him? Guys like this are not often traded, but when they are, you’d expect the return to be higher than a guy with a bloated contract who the other team wants to dump. Renteria is a good player who has even occasionally been great, but this just reeks of desperation.

  70. OK this will probably make us all feel worse, but it definitley wasn’t Marte who hated the outfield. I pulled this form the following June AJC article:

    http://www.ajc.com/sports/content/sports/braves/0605/08marte.html

    Marte said the outfield was “boring” but knows he may still end up there, and doesn’t have any doubts he could excel. He reasons that Florida’s Miguel Cabrera, a former shortstop, came to the majors as an outfielder after working there for only a week in the minors.

    “He did it; why can’t I do it?” Marte said, smiling.

  71. As for Renteria, seriosuly, look at his stats. 3 seasons of above average offense out of 10. 2 very good seasons in 2002-2003, at his peak age. He isn’t a very good baseball player. He just isn’t.

    That is just silly. He only hit under .270 once with 3 years in the .300’s and 2 in the .280’s.

  72. I do not like this trade, although the adjusted salary makes it a little easier to swallow, but I love the Braves and I’m going to root for Renteria and hope that Chipper is healthy. If JS thinks is whats best for the team, I for it. If they slip next year I am not going to stop rooting. I’ve read your posts for a long time nyb and it’s a shame that your forgetting what it means to be a fan. GO BRAVES

  73. They did try to move him to the outfield last year in the Fall League and it was just a disaster.

    At the risk of sounding repetetive, there is just no evidence for this ( though I am sure the Braves org will have some anonymous source release that soon ).
    the official reason which was given was that he was a plus defender at 3b and there was no point jerking a young player around. It had IMO nothing to do with how he handled other positions, because he was never given a chance. Not that i was in favour of moving him from his 3B position

  74. You make the call. Andy Marte is not traded to the Red Sox for Edgar Renteria. What does the left side of your infield look like for the next three years, and if Marte isn’t included in those plans, where is he for the next three years. It is easy to criticize when you don’t have to make those kind of decisions.

  75. Jim

    No, I wouldn’t trade Betemit for Renteria. Because Renteria isn’t very good and makes an assload of money.

    And you can’t just blanket all prospects as inconsistent. You say only 50% of 1st rounders play more than 3 years in the majors, I say that 100% of the players with Martes track record make it, assuming he stays healthy(of which he is a better bet than Renteria).

  76. Smitty,
    I’m with you on this one. Let’s give this deal a chance. We dealt from a position of strength for a position of need. Renteria has been very good at times (2 time All Star) and can be again. Do I hate giving up Marte? Sure. But you have to give up value to get value(usually). I’m more than a little surprised how most folks seem to be down on Francoeur(sp?). He’s a ++ Right Fielder and has power potential. I’d take him over Marte every time at this point(especially based on their Major league experience–I know, small sample size:)). Sure, he struggled down the stretch but that’s what this game is about. Making adjustments.

  77. Which infield is better?

    A: Chipper/Renteria/Giles/LaRoche
    B: Marte/Betemit/Giles/Chipper

    B also costs around $5M less.

  78. I think the reason that people are upset is not because we traded Marte, but because it was straight up for Renteria. I actually like Renteria and think he will be a good addition to the club. Of course at the expense of giving up one of the five best prospects in the game, I think we overpaid. There was no pressure to move Marte, and in fact, unless he absolutely blew up AAA, I would have been fine to leave him at Richmond all year. Even if Bobby, John, and the minor leagues folks all know something we don’t, I think we still could have gotten a better player(s) than what we received.

  79. I say that 100% of the players with Martes track record make it, assuming he stays healthy(of which he is a better bet than Renteria).

    a little overambitious, dont you think?

  80. jim, you make good points and they’ve provided some comfort for the time being. HOWEVER, marte’s upside was easy to see, no matter where he was playing. he will be good.

    we should not have traded him. at least not for a ss when we already had one.

  81. The left side of my INF for the next 3 years? Well, I’d really like to get Bill Hall. Short of that, just play Betemit and Chipper for next year. Marte backs up 3B and 1B, getting about 20% of the AB at each, until Chipper gets hurt and then he can play every day. Same thing every year until Chipper agrees to witch to 1B(which after he gets injured next year should be easy to get him to do).

  82. You make the call. Andy Marte is not traded to the Red Sox for Edgar Renteria. What does the left side of your infield look like for the next three years, and if Marte isn’t included in those plans, where is he for the next three years. It is easy to criticize when you don’t have to make those kind of decisions.

    I’m comfortable with Betemit as the starting SS, and a gloveman backup. I’m comfortable with Marte as the RH half of a first base platoon, also starting on occasion at 3B and in LF. I’m even comfortable with Marte playing in AAA again this season, although I think that would have been a waste.

    I’m not comfortable with trading the most valuable trade chit I have for a player who, at best, is an average player, but is paid as though he’s a superstar. Renteria doesn’t suck, but he’s not “the best SS in the NL”, as I’ve seen claimed. Both Furcal and Rollins are better, at a bare minimum. And if Renteria doesn’t return to 2002-03 form, he’s Jack Wilson. Or maybe we’ve got our very own Christian Guzman.

  83. Chirs, you could be right, but we will never know. It is like saying what woudl be the better infield:

    a) Chipper,Furcal,Giles,Puljos
    b) Matre,Betemit, Orr,Chipper
    c) Mathews, Tinkers, Evers, Chance

    It is time to move on, we need a closer

  84. Koro, name 1 player who put up numbers similar to Marte, at a similar age, with similar defensive reputation…and didn’t make it. Look, he might not be Mike Schmidt, or even Matt Williams, but short of injury he is going to play 6+ years in the majors. Bank on it.

  85. Just a couple of points: the fact that Marte can be traded for a quality major league shortstop (and even the Renteria detractors have to admit that) is a clear statement of his upside. Reasonable people can disagree on his talents, but in the finance world, the Braves cashed in the Marte option at what seems to be its full market value, unless somebody seem to think there’s something more we could get for Marte today, which I haven’t seen. In an efficient market, when you get full value for an option, you’ve got all there is. It’s true you can regret the decision six years from now (but no more than that… once Marte is a free agent, HE gets to capture his value) but you plugged a (perceived) hole now. This is a bad deal if there was something more that the Braves could have gotten for Marte TODAY, since they need a shortstop TODAY. I agree that the difficult question is the extent to which you think Betemit solves that problem. If you don’t (and the Braves obviously don’t) then as long as you get full value for Marte and you address your problem, there’s no complaint here.
    It’s interesting that JS is willing to start a season (last year) with a wish and a prayer in left and right but unwilling to start with a reasonable hope at short. But the defensive spectrum is what it is. So which is it JPMouton that you don’t trust: that JS got full current value for Marte or that we didn’t have a problem at shortstop that needed addressing? Or both? I give JS the benefit of the doubt here.

  86. I will pay 25 bucks to anyone who can come up with 5 examples of players with Marte-like stats (adjusted for age and level) that went on to play fewer than 300 major league games AND did not experience a serious injury.

    To qualify as “Marte-like”, the player must have:
    a) 400 PA in AAA at age 21 or younger with Iso OBP (OBP – Avg) > .08, ISO Power (SLG – Avg) > .19, a K/BB ratio under 2.0, and a batting average at least .250

    OR

    b) 400 PA in AA at age 20 or younger with above qualifications, except K/BB ratio can be under 2.5

    Note that if the examples all played in the PCL, I will have to look at the park factors also.

  87. I wouldn’t take Rollins over Renteria for as much as we are having to pay. This isn’t that bad a of a deal. Renteria is better than Lugo. It’s not like we gave up Marte for Royce clayton.

  88. Some of the comments on this thread are unbelievable. Shooting darts at JS for this deal is easy when you ignore the man’s track record. Bottom line is that Bobby Cox wants an experienced SS to replace Furcal and Renteria certainly fits the bill. He had an off year last season playing in the Boston zoo. I believed we should give Betemit the shot but just read that Bobby and his staff believe that Wilson has grown recently and is now more fitted to a 3B role. Those who criticize Chipper should be ashamed of themselves since he’s the best team oriented guy you could have on a team and has done as much for our organization as anyone. I wouldn’t be surprised if Betemit winds up at 1B which would be ironic since I wrote a column prooposing just that over two years ago.

  89. You don’t need to add the BA clause. The other stats will cover you. This is actually interesting. I am going to check Komminsk’s stats. he is the only one I can think off the top of my head..

  90. I couldn’t find Komminsk’s minor league numbers, much as I looked. He might qualify as one of em.

  91. micheal-

    haven’t you seen the big “This is Adam’s base. Do not touch!” sign on 1st base?
    if they didn’t put marte there why would they put betemit there?

  92. When are people going to mention the fact that Betemit has not been a full-time SS since 2001 at Greenville.

    That is a valid argument and I think one that Bobby Cox, if no one else, took very seriously and why he lobbied for the trade.

    Major league baseball is not a beer league. You want the guys at each position to be able to effectively play that position. We can talk range factors and the like, but what about the mental side of the game?

    Baseball is played in a three-dimensional reality and not on Diamond Mind (although I do love that game) and mental errors do count. My guess is Bobby is thinking about that in the urging of this deal.

    Marte will be missed. He may well become an All-Star 3B. But I wish I hadn’t thrown out all my old Baseball America’s that were insisting that the Jose Offerman era was about to begin. And I wish I hadn’t thrown out one of my old Bill James annuals where Bill said Phil Plantier was going to be a 40-HR guy at Fenway.

    Player projection is an inexact science, although some in here seem to insist that it isn’t.

    I love statistical analysis, as it helps shape a better understanding of reality. But it is not reality in and of itself.

    For the record, I like (but don’t love) the trade. Marte should have been playing 1B immediately after Chipper moved back to 3B. No excuse for that.

  93. Korobeiniki, the reason we ripped on “Traitor” Tom and Furcal was because of the money and the fact that they seemed like they truely wanted to stay in Atlanta when in fact they just were going for the extra cash. At least that is what I have gathered.

  94. I know Betemit started out on fire in winter ball, but since has gone into a slump. Last I saw he was hitting .283, down from .330 early.

  95. Do you guys know what makes the Braves organization so special – and, in a lot of senses, unique in baseball? They scout, understand and value their own players better than any other outsiders. With that said – forget the crazy Lidge talk – when was the last time JS traded ANY young player / prospect who later proved to be worth keeping?

  96. Did anyone ever suspect that the Braves continued to pump up Marte to Baseball America to rate him #1 over Salty and others to position them to trade him (knowing that a restructured deal with Chipper was on the horizon)?

    Yes, and the Russians shot JFK, and the Moon landing was stage in a studio in Hollywood.

  97. the red sox are saying that they’re thinking of moving marte to the outfield or 1st base because mike lowell is at 3rd.

    oh, man…that’s a great idea.
    i wish we thought of that.

  98. When are people going to mention the fact that Betemit has not been a full-time SS since 2001 at Greenville.

    This is a valid point. However, Renteria committed 35 errors last season. Hopefully, that was just an abberation, but if not – well, Betemit can play SS that well.

  99. I can’t loose that much sleep over a prospect who never hit over .300 in a full season in the minors, and who looks likely to strike out 100 times a year. The few times I saw him swing a bat on TV, his swing didn’t look particularly special. I guess someday he’ll play 3rd with 25 HR batting .280, with average defense. That’s pretty good, but not Chipper Jones level. CJ will stop playing someday, but my guess is that the millions he gave back earn him the right to decide where he fields for the next 3 years.

  100. Schmidt still hasn’t won 20 games in a year(Denny did for us). Also, Schmidt was not that good for Pittsburgh. Who’s to say, he doesn’t pitch the same way for us(not very good) and we him go via free agency and get nothing for him. All in all seems like a good trade for us.

  101. I don’t think anyone’s made this argument but the time it takes for Marte to materialize and become a great pro, Chipper and Smoltz will be too old to contribute. If the Braves are trying to win now, which they certainly are, then this move makes sense. Also, do you all remember the Mark DeRosa experiment? He played great in a limited role but when he was playing full time (briefly for the Braves and later with the Rangers ) he was awful. Just something to keep in mind for those of you were counting on Wilson next year. Lastly, some vetern leadership with a guy that is a proven winner might go a long way when we make the playoffs after winning the division for the 15th straight time next year.

  102. Yall thought Marte for Renteria was bad…heres some REALLY bad news:

    Julio signs a 2 yr deal w the Mets.
    This sucks, ill miss you Julio

  103. I’m afraid to ask, but what are the chances the Braves sign Piazza to backup catch/1st? After this trade, I worry anything is possible.

  104. Justin,
    FYI it was the Cubans not the Russians:). The Red Sox and Yanks have over-hyped their prospects for years(and continue to do so).

  105. Leeds, I was talking more about the mental part of the game, and for a SS, that is big.

    Physical errors happen. Quite a lot for Renteria last season. Hopefully, that’s an aberration.

  106. I’d like to see Piazza at 1B and backup catcher for Atlanta, but he’s going to the AL to be a DH.

  107. Well at least with Furcal, this was the first time the words “long term contract” have left the lips of the Braves organization in regards to him. And putting yourself in his position, is team loyalty worth 12 million over three years?

    The truth of the matter is that it is not. And most people in his position would do the same.

  108. I guess it is just conincidence that Renteria keeps popping up in the postseason…couldn’t have anything to do with talent. No way.

  109. Rip me for doubting JS and Bobby if you want, but I will go on record right now as thinking this trade is retarded. Has anyone here looked at Renteria’s PECOTA card? There is no solid reason to believe he will improve. He was on the decline in St. Louis when the Red Sox signed him to that collosally idiotic contract. His improve rate is well below average, something like 33% (average is 50%) and his breakout rate is miniscule, 12% or something like that. The guy is past his prime and has gotten STEADILY worse every year since 2003. The drop has been constant. That doesn’t suggest randomness to me. I’d like to think his poor play last year was a product of the Boston pressure and being compared to the rest of their sick offense, but then explain his 2004 numbers, which were awful? And we give up a guy who’s projected to be Miguel Cabrera for this? MIGUEL CABRERA?

    I also think the Bobby/JS hagiography is a bit out of control. Yes, they are a great team. But everybody makes mistakes. There have been bad trades, and there has been mishandling of prospects. The Dan Kolb trade was a mistake. And I firmly believe the way Marcus Giles was handled was a mistake as well. Keith Lockhart over him? Quilvio Veras? Give me a break. These guys are not infallible. And I think this trade was a mistake. A big one. Chipper is breaking down, and we had his successor ready-made and waiting. Yes, okay, the guy has done more for us than any of us could have asked, but this is a baseball TEAM! Did anyone ask him about going to first? How could anyone POSSIBLY value Adam LaRoche so much that they wouldn’t move him? That in itself is really stupid. And how could we possibly be so desperate for a “veteran” SS that we had to do this? We did damned well with a bunch of rookies last year. Just because Bobby doesn’t like it doesn’t mean it’s not a good thing. Old habits die hard, but sometimes they need to die. If Bobby/JS were the greatest of all time, we’d have more than 1 WS title. They make mistakes, and this is one of them. Really bad, IMHO. John Henry paid us $11 million to take Renteria? This guy HATES paying players to play elsewhere. HATES it. What does that tell you?

    The only way this situation can get any more retarded is if the Red Sox spin Marte for Lugo. If they do that, their scouting department should all be fired.

  110. I guess it is just conincidence that Renteria keeps popping up in the postseason…couldn’t have anything to do with talent. No way.

    By that logic, Paul bako and Eddie Perez are world beaters.

  111. In the straw vote, I think this is a good trade.

    For whatever reason, JS & Cox didn’t think Betemit could handle SS. They weren’t willing to go with another Jeff Blauser/Raffy Belliard combo, and with so many years of watching wasted at bats to a glove man like Raffy, I understand that decision.

    Once that was decided, JS probably recognized that the market for a good SS was going to be costly — $8 mil for Orlando Caberra, $13mil for Furcal — that’s HUGE money when your payroll is $85, and those guys aren’t superstars. Yet, for a decent, non-Betemit option, that’s what the commitment JS was looking at this year (and probably next year as well, if he’d only dealt for a one year stop gap).

    So JS traded for a good, not great SS — but at least he’s committing only $$ that Renteria is worth in wins on the field, not what we’d have to pay for a similar SS on the free market.

    $6 million a year for 3 years — leaving us $5 mil for next year to address our remaining needs. And even if this means Marte isn’t around to improve our situation at 1B (Laroche fans forgive me), a good 1B is cheaper and easier to find than a good SS.

    Marte looks like a great player. His comp list on Baseball Prospectus includes Miguel Cabrera, David Wright, and Ron Santo– plus 7 guys I’ve never heard of. David Wright is great, but David Wright at 1B isn’t as special as David Wright at 3B, and that’s what we were looking at w/Marte.

    One last word, we would probably all of liked Chipper to have moved to 3B. But don’t you think this came up during his contract re-negotiations a few weeks ago? I don’t think he wanted to move, and I think one of the reasons he took less money was that JS promised he’d stay at 3B, where his career numbers will give him a much better shot at the HoF.

  112. If Schmidt is the best guy the Braves have given up in the JS era, can we just relax and trust that though Marte may have loads of talent and his numbers suggest a bright future, there may be something that will hold him back – something we don’t know, but Paul Snyder et al DO know.

  113. I love the trade. The Braves are not rebuilding. They do not have to look to the “left side of the infield for the next three years.” The only year to be concerned about is 2006. The organization’s philosophy is to use its young players to make the major league team better, whether by trade or call-up. Renteria is an established shortstop whose presence on the roster today makes the 2006 Braves better than the team was yesterday without him. That’s all that should matter.

  114. Jason Schmidt, Jermaine Dye…
    I’m sure some of these other guys can throw out more names.

    I give JS and Bobby Cox credit for leading the team to 14 division titles, but that does not make them infallable. Dan Kolb? Mondesi? Jordan? These names ring a bell for anyone? I know Mondesi and Jordan weren’t trades, but those moves very nearly cost us the playoffs last year.

  115. I have no problem with trading Marte. We already have a probable Hall of Fame 3rd baseman signed for years to come. My issue is with getting Renteria instead of a closer for him. I don’t see what Renteria gives us over Betemit aside from a higher salary. Marte for Baeyz(sp) would have been a much smarter deal. A platoon of Betemit and some random good defensive shortstop inserted in late innings would have worked fine. Our bigger need is in the bullpen. Now that Farnsworth, Hoffman, Ryan, Jones, and Wickman have all signed, I’m afraid we are going to try another round of closer by committee which will almost certainly lead to another first round playoff exit (if we even get there).

  116. It is true. This is a historically bad day for Atlanta Braves baseball. Julio Franco has gone to the enemy.

  117. Gosh and i’m suppose to be moving to Atlanta next yr. ughh well guess just gotta live with this trade and see whats going to happen next yr. Renteria will probably put up some decent numbers hopefully better than what he gave the sox last yr.
    Damn we still need a closer i’m cacthing a headache i’ll take a day off and think about it. Renteria is so overated in these baseball games he’s a great hitter in MVP Baseball wish he could put up a 20+ HR season for us. Anyways Good luck Andy Marte i know you will be great somewhere laterzzz probably see u come back to haunt the Braves one of these days. Renteria is 30 hmmm ok i’ve had enough just get us a closer and another solid Starter JS plz.

  118. “Talent is a nice thing to have. Results are what count.”

    Screw the Red Sox and thier front office. No one cares anymore. They have to pay part of this contract, ha haha. Marte for Renteria and money, isn’t that bad. Renteria is a solid established player and doesn’t have to play in front of the most anal people in America. He will be able to chill and do his thing in Atlanta. Most people would agree that it is ok to trade ‘potential’ for an established good player. Say what you want, but if Renteria bounces back he will be one of the top 4 SS in all of baseball. I am going to say I think he will have a better season tha Furacl will this year. We may have up graded at short for cheaper. And seeing how we are all on the “what if” sort of thing. What if Marte is shipped to Tampa? He will go there and rot, just like all of their prospects do. In Tampa, he will never get a shot to play and will eventually fall out of baseball.

  119. Jermaine Dye has had one/two really good years, and some injury problems. i wouldn’t say he is a great player

  120. Schmidt has had two/three good years, and mostly injury problems. I wouldn’t say that he is a great player either.

  121. Honestly folks, how many of you have actually seen Marte play regularly? I’d imagine that it’s a small # – the “Richmonders” among us. Like you all, I can read and I’ve seen that our scouts and others have raved about him, but we are giving up an unproven commodity (albiet one long on potential) for a player that was the best available at his position. I know that Renteria wasn’t great last year and I’m not going to make excuses for him, but I think we need to look at this differently. Chipper’s at 3rd, we all know he’s not moving – and based on what he has done for this organization, he shouldn’t have too. I wouldn’t if I was him. As for first, mgmt likes AR – weather we do or not. There wasn’t any place to play the kid. Besides, Renteria is worth more than the $6 mill that per that we’ll be on the hook for.
    I’m going to be a company man on this and until I’m proven wrong, I’m going to look at this as a good deal.

  122. Plus we got Keith Lockhart and his box of pictures and Michael Tucker for Dye. The Royals traded him to the Rockies for freakin’ Neifi Perez. Check out Dye’s bio page and we got the best players by far to be traded for Dye. Althought that’s not saying very much.

  123. I am exhausted w/ this marte/renteria thing.
    Renteria will not stink it up like some have suggested. I think I even saw someone call him our Christian Guzman. Give me a Break!!!

    Personally, I think it is time to move on. The facts are Marte would have been in AAA next year and there is NO WAY to know how he would have progressed or for that matter if he could even switch postions!!!

    So, the next matter at hand is what do we do about the closer role? After all the object is to win a WS is it not. One prospect out the door is not going to ruin this franchise for the next 10 yrs.

  124. Hey Guys..here is my point of view on this trade. Although I am a Big Braves fan but I did get to watch lots of the Red Sox game this past season. Edgar seemed kind of lost playing in the American League. As you all know in the AL they don’t steal, hit and run or steal. Edgar excells in these areas especially in batting 2nd. Plus I think Edgar had a injury problem which wasn’t publized. I think you will see a changed Edgar playing for the Braves.

  125. Cabrera went .294/.366/.512 in the majors at age 21.
    Wright went .320/.395/.570 at age 21 among 3 levels (40% at AA, 20% at AAA, 40% in the majors).
    Marte went .258/.348/.469 at age 21 between 2 levels (85% at AAA, 15% in the majors).

    Which of these is not like the others? I like Marte, but just because his top comps are Cabrera and Wright doesn’t mean he’s as good as they are — it mostly means they’re contemporaries, played the same position at the time, and can hit and draw some walks. But Marte doesn’t look to be as good as Cabrera and Wright, so I don’t believe it’s useful to look at him in that light.

  126. Sam, Josh

    I agree. We need to send Betemit and James to Washington for that Corerro guy why they still have Bowen as their GM

  127. Possibly my two favorite players in the Braves organization both gone. What a pathetic fucking day.

  128. Another thing on Marte…when the Braves called him up he only batted about 165BA and he ended up sitting on the bench for the stretch drive. Only time will tell.

  129. Hope all you want that Renteria is going to bounce back. I’m hoping, too, so this doesn’t look so colossally (how do you spell that, anyway?) dumb. But the projections do not suggest it. You don’t even have to look at PECOTA. All you have to do is look at his 2004 and 2005 numbers. There is a steady decline. It’s not like he’s all over the place. He was mediocre in 2004 and worse this year.

    Guys on SoSH have linked to this thread, BTW, and are currently reaming our front office. What makes me sick is, they weren’t looking to shop Renteria. It just opens up another hole for them to fill. And then we must have dropped by Jed Hoyer or Bill Lajoie or whoever the hell is in charge up there at lunch and gone, “Hey, Jed, is Renteria available? We’re thinking about moving Marte, how does that sound?” Hoyer avoids spitting his Coke all over the table and rushes off to tell his guys how desperate we are. Suddenly, gee, getting rid of Renteria looks pretty good!

    And per about 8,000 sources, they aren’t planning on shopping him.

    Maybe I will feel better about this in a couple of months or if Renteria rebounds. Right now I feel like we just got hosed and I’m upset and embarrassed. I want to trust JS but I have this mental image of the Red Sox brass in their suite, doubled over on the couches and laughing hysterically in disbelief.

    At least we’re not paying for all of the contract.

  130. I agree – Marte is not as good as Cabrera and Wright.

    Of course, they are the two best players in organized baseball under age 25 (Felix Hernandez is probably next), so talk about praising with faint damnation…

  131. Betemit and a pitching prospect should be able to get a decent closer.
    It’s high time we take back the highjacked Rational train and fix the closer role and for the love of God give Ramirez to anybody who wants him.
    No matter what chaos we’ve all been discussing, this team is not going to be the 2004 mets next year. With some piching help and the improvement of our rookies from last year, this team will be a force to reckoned with.

  132. No, actually, Justin. It feels so uneven there’s nothing to be happy about. If it were a roughly comparable trade that helped both teams, sure. But I don’t root for one of my teams to get fleeced at the expense of another. Plus, I have a hierarchy of my three teams, and the Braves are at the top ;-)

  133. Redsox fan here. Thanks for Marte, good luck with rent-a-wreck (as we have come to call him in Boston). Yes, we gave up Hanley, but Beckett is far better than Edgar and Marte is better than Hanley.

  134. How about two or three more people tell us how shitty Marte’s 57 at bats last year were, just in case somebody reading this doesn’t know, gives a crap and thinks it matters?

    Because every other post isn’t enough.

  135. Again, I ask – How many people that are writing here have seen Andy Marte play baseball more than his mop up in the big leagues? The blogger said it right – here are some #1 Baseball America prospects from the last 15 years (Wilson Betemit, Josh Hamilton, Rick Ankiel, Ben Grieve, Brien Taylor, Todd Van Poppel). AND THAT IS #1. Some in the Top 10 over the last 10 years are Brandon Phillips, Gavin Floyd, Sean Burroughs, Corey Patterson, Ryan Anderson, Ruben Mateo, John Patterson, Bruce Chen, Pablo Ozuna, Matt White, and Karim Garcia. Can’t miss Hall of Famers, right?

    Take a look at the top prospects from the different leagues over the last 10 years. I will bet you all that you don’t know 1/2 of them. This is an All-Star SS, and the team wasn’t moving Chipper for at least the next three years. Period. It was a necessary move, because one of the #1 Baseball America golden childs was judged by people that know (more than you and I) to not be able to play there on a top division club. End of story.

  136. Jenny,

    SoSH guys can kiss our asses. They can’t rip our front office when their’s is another eppisode of “As the World Turns.” If they were under the same pay restrictions we are they would be a last place team and as it is they can’t even win their division (yes the did win the world title, but with that talent they should win 70% of thier games.)
    I see the Red Sox brass bending over and doing something else for Peter Gammons, Schilling, the Yankess, Johnny Dammon, and Ben Garner Afleck.

  137. I think this is a terrible trade, but as i said yesterday, I think JS sees this as the last year of the Chipper’ Andruw; Smoltz core being effective, so this is the last chance in the 14 year run to win a WS. 2007 is rebuilding to a decent 2008.

    Does maybe JS doubt Marte’s listed age? Is that why he undervalues him?

  138. Totally off topic, but is it me or does ‘Sons of Sam Horn’ sound cultish? Any minute now CNN is gonna report that FBI and ATF agents have just surrounded the SOSH compound and are demanding they let Marte go or they’ll have to use force.

  139. “As the world turns” has made quite a splash this offseason…

    Added:

    Andy Marte
    Guilleramo Mota
    Jermaine Van Buren
    Josh Beckett
    Mike Lowell
    Mark Loretta

    At the cost of:

    Hanley Rameriz
    Jesus Delgado
    Annibal Sanchez
    Doug Marabelli
    Edgar Renteria

    Clearly we’re on the right track.

  140. Jenny – Red Sox fans are douchebags. If you spend too much time on that board, you are going to get sucked into their black hole of obnoxious self-loathing.

  141. good one Smitty

    Relax people, we have a shortstop. A proven major league shortstop that we are paying below market value. So what, we gave up Andy Marte, how many other of our #1’s have we cast off before, ALOT. We need to win now with Chipper, Smoltz, Andruw, etc….

    Trade Betemite and KJ/Langerhans/Rameriez, etc for a closer

  142. I love my Braves, but the Red Sox have had a better offseason than the Braves. It doesn’t take a Red Sox fan to see that. No sense in gloating over the obvious, or even debating the point at all. Can you guys go home now and celebrate amongst yourselves?

  143. sosh, I wouldn’t go bragging about that return, until Beckett can start 25 or more games in a season

  144. Andy Marte (will be traded)

    Guilleramo Mota (HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA)

    Jermaine Van Buren (no controll)

    Josh Beckett (15 games tops, blisters, sore arm)

    Mike Lowell (Older than Johnny Pesky)

    Mark Loretta (Well, he is a good pick up, if he is healthy)

  145. Edgar Rentaria (older than George Burns – how confident are you in his Columbian birth certificate?)

  146. JS is an idiot. If you get on his bad side, he’ll dump you for nothing.

    See Marquis and Schmidt for example. When Marte is putting up 30 HRs, 100 ribbies annually JS will wish he never traded him for a washed up SS.

  147. Didn’t Theo “The REAL commish of baseball” Espin sign rent-a-wreck? And if God is sitting to Theo’s right, didn’t we just steal Rent-a-wreck?

  148. What exactly has Marquis done other than be a league-average starter — at best — with gaudy win totals as a result of the St. Louis offense? You can get that on the open market for nothing, and we got a year of MVP-caliber results from J.D. Drew out of it. Wainwright hasn’t exactly lit things up yet, either, injuries not withstanding.

    It took Schmidt almost 5 seasons to become the pitcher that he is today after leaving Atlanta. I’d say it was worth it for us.

    This board is getting unreadable, on both sides of the fence, with all of the bashing and bickering and in-fighting going on.

  149. SOSH,
    I am fine with it. If Fenway wasn’t the Boston Zoo, he would have played better. Maybe he is a nut case and won’t be under stupid presure in Atlanta to be the next Nomar. John Smoltz can just refer him to his Sports srink.

  150. Hey, SOSH — I’ve visited the message board and it’s a good one. The Sox probably got the better of this trade, congratulations.

    Now, if I care to explore the reactions of the Sox fan base further, I know just where to go. This is not the SoSHRHS message board, after all.

    (Sons of Sam Horn’s Red-Headed Stepchild, that is)

  151. Once again smitty you made a tiny mistake. Its Theo Einstein, who was the savior of the Sox, even though they haven’t won their division in, well a long time.

  152. so does this mean that renteria will be leading off for us this year? are we still going to look for a big stick and a closer? IMO, i think you had to deal marte. i am not saying i agree with getting renteria. i know it sux, but i dont think you can ask chipper or marte to make a move to 1st. chipper, because he was moved once, made HUGE sacrifices for the team by renegotiating his contract, and wouldnt be the polite thing to ask him to move to 1st. marte, because he obviously had a hard time trying to adjust to another position in the past, and his natural position is 3rd. it would be like saying to a chef, “i know you can cook, but can you farm?” it just doesnt make sense to know chipper will be a lock at 3rd for the next 5 years and ask marte to move for chipper. we, as braves fans, are upset and for good reason, but i just think it was necessary.
    how much $ do you think we have left to use for a stick and a closer?

  153. That’s great, I love the “win now attitude”. Believe me, more than anything I love the win now attitude.

    But how many of you really believe Edgar Renteria is the answer to any of the following questions: “Who is the key player to get the Braves over the hump?” or “If the Braves are going to trade their best prospect (and possibly the best in baseball) who should they get in return?”

    Other teams looking to get over the hump exchange prospects and cash for Alex Rodriguez, Curt Schilling, Scott Rolen, Randy Johnson… we get Edgar Renteria. you be the judge.

  154. Smitty, really, come on. “As the World Turns” has done a pretty damn good job this offseason and besides the cash for Renteria, they haven’t spent a dime. It’s all been terrific trades. Mirabelli for Loretta? On what planet is that fair? It’s even more amazing because they don’t even have a GM, it’s 26 random guys running around a hotel. Seems to be working considerably better than a lot of other teams.

    So what does everyone think first base will be next year? The Adam LaRoche Redux?

  155. I’m not upset at the trade. The whole point of a farm system is to help your big league club succeed. I think using Marte to get Renteria at below market value, falls under the category of using your farm system to help your parent club.

  156. ARods and Schillings and Rolens and Johnsons cost 10-plus million a year as well. Considering the resources the Braves had and the number of holes they had to fill, I think the return is not awful.

  157. And the name is Epstein. And if y’all think he was the only one that did that Renteria deal, please exit the 1970s. Every front office is a team nowadays.

    Wow, I’m in a really bad mood. Sorry, guys.

  158. How many Championships have we won?

    I could care less about winning the division when I know we are a lock to be knocked out immediately.

  159. Jenny you were the one talking about how the Sox were going to go in to a nose dive with out Theo. They have had an ok off season. They have no center fielder, or short stop. They did get Loretta (that was a good deal.) They got an old third baseman and a pitcher who has spent more time on the DL in his career than he has played. ESPN is running a diffrent story everyday on their front office and how thier is constant “in-fighting.” They make the Hawks look civil.

  160. How about a little corroboration on Jason Schmidt being on JS’ bad side.

    Jenny, I thought I read you were at Carleton. A great school in Minnesota. My nephew is a freshman there.

    Avoid the stat head temptation. Use statistics and use them wisely. Don’t substitute them for reality.

    If you want a substitute reality, play Everquest.

    Seriously, I can understand the concerns about Renteria, but if the dollars Henry is sending us is accurate, this is a great deal.

    SOSH, call me in October.

  161. You don’t remember how JS thought Schmidt was too much of a free spirit and cared more about playing the guitar than becoming a good pitcher?

    He intimated that Schmidt was intimidated by the responsibility of joining older veterans Greg Maddux, Tom Glavine and John Smoltz in the rotation and traded him to the Pirates.

  162. This is great for the Sox. We get the best thirdbaseman of all times and we sill have Manny. I will have my bitch…I mean intern post some great links about it later. MARTE IS BASEBALL JESUS!

  163. This may have already been mentioned, but I was reading someone saying that they were bothered that we traded Marte for Renteria straight up. Did we not get cash back as well? Theoretically, can that cash not be used on another player to help the team? So its not really straight up at all, unless you are counting warm bodies strcitly.

  164. We got 11 million from Boston which brings Renteria price tag down to 6 millin per year. That is a sifnificant chunk of change.

  165. Denny Neagle for Jason Schmidt was a good trade. Yes, Jason Schmidt aged into a good P, but neagle was 3rd in the cy young in ’97, won 16 games in ’98, all while schmidt was a nobody.

  166. It’s an interesting trade, one that we’ll just have to watch and wait on (as with almost all trades). The offseason seems pretty well concluded with this, doesn’t it? There are no closers (worth having, anyway) available…trading Betemit for one of the mediocre lot seems unwise given Chipper’s injury problems. Besides, if all we can get for Marte is Renteria and cash, what do we get for Betemit? A sack of s**t and a new bat rack?

  167. I wouldn’t go as far as saying that the offseason is concluded, but it will be easier to make other moves. Dotel is a free agent. I know he is coming off arm trouble, but if they can sign him cheap and wait on him to recover, he could be a good addition down the road.

  168. 6 million, so there goes chipper’s money.

    Now, we have a below avg hitter at short, who led the league in errors last season (past-gold gloves recognized). We have a below avg leadoff hitter. We need (1) a closer (2) bats in LF and 1B (3) room for betemit, and about $8 million get it done. No Julio, no #1 prospect, no-farnsworth (or colon).

    Its just weak bats, bullpen throwaways, and Team Richmond to take the NL East by storm. At least the Phillies, Mets and Nats haven’t added anyone, or else we’d be in trouble.

  169. “Besides, if all we can get for Marte is Renteria and cash, what do we get for Betemit? A sack of s**t and a new bat rack?”

    A 4 time All star SS isnt enough for you. How is Marte doing in winter ball. Last time I checked he was putting up some ugly numbers. Also when did .275 in AAA become so impressive. I’m glad he’s gone!!

  170. I think Estrada with Betemit or Marte could have gotten scott shields+. id have prefereed that option.

  171. can anyone remember when we were on the better end of a heavy-handed trade like this one? i can’t recall one off the top of my head. it seems like we’re always giving up a lot whenever we make a trade to get a sheffield, jd drew or…renteria.

  172. 6 million, so there goes chipper’s money.

    No that’s just part of the money we were going to spend for Furcal and we still have some of that left over!

  173. Blind trust is misplaced trust. Yes, Schuerholz has led us to 14 division titles. Yes, I think he’s the greatest GM of our time. I liked trading Wainwright, and I didn’t mind trading Capellan, because I thought at the time that we were getting value in return.

    But I disagree with this trade, and it’s a bit sickening to be told that I don’t “trust” him because of I don’t think we’re getting reciprocal value.

    Even though we are getting money back from the Sox, I think the 18m we will be paying Renteria (less the 2-3m Betemit would have cost over that period) could better have been used on a closer, or on a big bat to put at first base or left field.

    Don’t forget, too, that next year’s free agent class is much deeper: if Wilson couldn’t handle the job after all, we would’ve had more money to spend on a quality player in the ’07 market.

    I sincerely hope I am wrong, and that Renteria does give us value. Some Sox fans note that Renteria suffered from back problems all year that he played through, and perhaps he will recover–but back problems are difficult to get rid of long-term. We’ll have to wait and see.

    In the meantime, let’s hope Schuerholz has not been concentrating just on this deal, and there are others potentially lined up to fill our more obvious deficiencies. He is indeed a good GM, and the vast majority of moves he makes are good ones. But that doesn’t mean we should refuse to question any particular move. I trust him to make us a better team overall, but I do not think he has done so with this particular trade.

  174. You have to give up something to gain something, and what part of those trades have come back to haunt us?

  175. I had totally forgotten about Schmidt’s penchant for the grunge. He is from the Pacific NW, so it figures.

    I always thought Schmidt should have been groomed for closing.

  176. By the way the Nats did get Soriano. I dont see how we aren;t on the better end of this deal. We had a PROSPECT that we traded away for a 4 time allstar, what more could you ask for. Marte is still at least 3 years away from our team (who knows maybe he didnt want to change positions, we dont know if he had the choice, maybe he declined to do so). If you would rather have Marte on the field over Chipper, well then….

  177. Scheurholz could end up trading Giles or a combination of Langerhans or Johnson with Lerew to get a closer. He might look at a leadoff hitter in the outfield, or at second base. I love Giles, but he isn’t “irreplaceable” and it would open a hole for a Betemit/Garciaparra combo. I wouldn’t advise it, but that might be what JS is thinking.

  178. I believe it’s a good trade. Marte had nowehere to go in the Braves organization. Who knows if he would be as valuable this time next year – still with no position to play at. Renteria will be at least above average at SS and will make us forget Furcal.

  179. How do we know we arent getting Renteria just for one year while Betemit matures just a little more. Maybe JS has a great idea about this trade. Just think most of the good shortstops are now locked up in multi-year deals. If Renteria has a good or great year w/ us then we could trade him for a whole lot more next year and that’ll open up the spot for Betemit. We just have to wait and see.

    Is trading Marte worth getting Renteria? Absolutely!!

  180. yeah, sorta like you have give up a shortstop who committed 30 errors to get a 21-year old stud 3rd baseman who’s ready to tear it up.

  181. csg, tell me you aren’t calling Renteria a stud. He used to be a good player, but that was two years ago. He is far from a stud. I also fail to see how getting a guy w/ 30 errors will make us “forget Furcal.” I think it’ll make us wistfully reminisce. And Marte’s AAA batting average means nothing, he had an OPS near .900 and was excellent defensively.

    Renteria is a serviceable SS. But he was not worth Andy Marte.

    It takes a lot to get a lot.

    True, but we didn’t get a lot.

  182. But Renteria is not a stud!!! He is over-the-hill and declining! The disheartening thing about this trade is giving up so much potential for such a lackluster return. Renteria is a known commodity–mediocrity. Marte has the potential for greatness, while Renteria has no such potential.

  183. since he wouldn’t even be finished with college right now, I feel ok using the word STUD. This is the best player the Braves have ever traded.

  184. I know a lot of people have been feeling similarly, but I just have to get this out, especially since Alex R. is my namesake…

    FUCK!!! FUCK FUCK FUCK!!!! WHY COULDN’T THEY JUST HAVE TRADED ANYONE OTHER THAN MARTE???? AND WHY COULDN’T THEY HAVE GOTTEN A GOOD PLAYER IN RETURN???

    Phew. That felt good. Sorry, guys, and thanks for letting me get that off my chest.

  185. We gave Mark DeRosa 300+ ABs two? years ago. If Betemit and/or Marte happened to suck, fix it in June. We do it every year at one position or another, why not this time?

  186. 30 errors was his career high. Didn’t he have a ‘steady decline’ in errors for the 3 years prior? Assuming that he’s going to make 30 more errors may be a bit of a stretch.

  187. Matt in Boston, think about the Shef and Drew trades…..In Sheffield we gave up Brian Jordan, Odalis Perez and Andy Brown…….ok, seriously, WE GOT SHAFTED??? Sure Perez was pretty good for a couple years, but merely serviceable, not CY YOUNG. All Sheffield did was put up solid numbers across the board, add a dynamic to an offense that hadn’t been that potent since the heart of the order was “3.Jones, 4.McGriff, 5.Justice, 6.Lopez, 7.Klesko.”

    As for Drew, this is where the saying comes from of “you gotta give talent, to get talent.” Marquis has been a solid #3/4 starter for the Cards while Wainwright might still develop into a #3 as the Braves had prodicted. Ray King was decent and used in the right places by LaRussa to help him excell.

    But without J.D. we would not have won the division. It was Drew who carried the offense with a injured Chipper Jones and a struggling Andruw. It was Drew who put up the numbers many people knew he could and it was Drew who finished 4th or 5th in MVP voting. Without him the streak would’ve stopped, guaranteed.

    So JS has had success with trades, Marte is good, but it wasn’t like Boston was just gonna hand a 4 time all-star over to us. He has talent, and he will thrive in Atlanta, back in the National League. It hurts to lose Marte, heck, it sucks, but we gave up one player to get one who is a proven talent and doesn’t just bring “promise.”

    Would everyone rather we sent Chuck James, Anthony Lerew, Yunel Escobar, J. Salt, Ovandy Suero, James Jurries, Martin Prado, and Van Pope to get one guy??? Were still deep in talent and have a major thirdbase guy in Eric Campbell who I had the privalege of watching all last season and this kid is very special, with surprising speed from the corner and an amazing glove. So just relax people, give it time!

  188. Jenny, if I have to read one more comment from you about what the Sons of Sam Horn (or whatever the %$&* they are called) are doing over in Red Sox land, I think I am going to put an ax through my monitor. Would you please give it a rest? NOBODY GIVES A CRAP. If we want to read what they are saying, we can all zip over there and read it ourselves. Surely I speak for others who have refrained from saying this, but just shut up about it already. I know that with Winter Meetings and trades and all that emotions run high, but your barrage of useless fodder about PECOTA cards (what???) and player comps and Boston sources has made me want to avoid this website. Usually, I really enjoy reading everyone’s opinions, but this is getting ridiculous. If someone was to go back and check, I am willing to bet that you have posted about 75 times on here in the last 2 days. Now everyone probably thinks I am a really mean guy for saying that, but I couldn’t take it anymore. There are probably others out there who agree with me and won’t admit it, but I guess that’s ok.

  189. Yes, actually, he did. 30 was a significant spike. But his range has been steadily decreasing, and he’s a below-average fielder. Comparing his data to Furcal’s over the past couple of years is deeply depressing.

  190. i know that peter gammons is a jackass and everyone here has a severe aversion to the guy but he’s on Boston sports radio right now. he is shocked that the sox were able to do this. they never dreamed they could get someone to take renteria off their hands. then to top that off they got a right-handed corner infielder with power in return. they have absolutely no intentions on flipping him. this is their 3rd baseman for the next 10 years. apparently JS had no choice but to trade Marte because part of Chipper’s new deal was a guarantee he wouldn’t be moved to another position.

    i wish i would wake up and all this would be gone. sox fans are coming in-and-out of my office celebrating and i have nothing to say except, “enjoy.”

  191. Matt, just think about it this way….If Marte fails and doesn’t live up to the hype, and Renteria becomes the same person he was before, you’ll be the one celebrating….Besides, its Red Sox fans….they don’t have much to celebrate with one Title in 90 some years…let them enjoy there ignorant bliss.

  192. Well, I always take Gammons with a grain of salt when he’s talking about the Red Sox.

    I can barely understand him. He talks like he has the d*ck of every guy in Red Sox Nation in his mouth.

    It’s hard being over 50 years old, because there is nothing I can say that will make everyone calm down and give this thing time.

    I don’t know how this is going to work out. I like, not love, the trade. Marte might be the next Mike Schmidt or he might be the next Billy Melton. Renteria may spark the Braves or he could do his best Andres Thomas impersonation.

    There is no way to tell except to wait and see how it turns out.

    So laugh, cry, jump for joy, or stand on the ledge of a tall building. Just don’t jump off.

  193. Jenny, you don’t need to tone it down at all. I certainly appreciate your keeping us informed of SOSH, because I can’t stand to wade through it.

  194. Well, I’ve got to say that a lot of people here are overreacting. Yes, Renteria is on the decline, but last year isn’t what you should expect. I’m expecting something close to his career numbers for last year which means above average offense and above average defense. I think Furcal will play better, but I defy you to name 15 SSs who will play better than Renteria will next year. And who knows. Marte may turn out to be David Wright + power – speed/BA, but he may also turn out to be Troy Glaus. If the former, we clearly got hosed. If the latter, then it’s not such a bad deal after all.

    Moreover, having a solid option at SS for the next three years makes good organizational sense, since we won’t have to worry about that spot while Andrus, etc. develope. Moreover, if we hold on to Betemit, we’ve got some really good depth on the left side of our IF. It goes from a potential weakness to a clear strength. People just need to realize that Renteria is not chopped liver. He’ll be good hitting in the 2-hole behind Marcus. I’m not excited about this deal, but I don’t think it was monumentally stupid, either. I would have thought we could have gotten more for Marte, but apperantly not. I guess we’ll just have to get excited about Lerew and James now. I figure at least one of them will make it to the majors in a Braves uniform. :-D

  195. I for one won’t be visiting Sosh today… cheeky bastards.

    HOWEVER. I agree that we shouldn’t jump off of buildings yet. I am on record as hating this deal, but I have to live with it. So I’m going to try to stop acting like a baby.

    As MGL/countless other analysts will tell us, one of the cardinal errors in player analysis is focusing too heavily on one year of data. Renteria’s defense and offense both will regress back toward his (good) career numbers, so we have that to look forward to. In addition, Betemit’s track record suggests he was playing over his head last year. He easily could be hitting .220/.290/.350 in June and playing attrocious defense, with Smoltz and Hudson grumbling. We don’t want that.

    But… damn. It really hurts to give up Marte. Really bad. I am only 24, so I don’t have the “been-there-before”dness of our older, wiser posters (50lb, sansho, Johnny, et al). I haven’t seen “can’t miss” guys flame out as much as they have. I will try to maintain that perspective.

    But gosh it’s tough.

  196. For the love — people calm down.

    Let us think this through. We have the foundation of the franchise, the guy who sucked it up and played leftfield to sate JS’s Vinnie fettish, a guy who has restructured his contract to give us room to improve, a guy who for his career has an OBP over .400 and SLG% of .538, and the team’s leader.

    Now some of us seem to think we should just ignore the above player’s wishes and move him to first base. I think not.

    In the outfield we have Andruw. He’s not going anywhere. We have KJ, Langerhans, and Jeff at the corners. All of whom JS and Cox seem to be high on.

    We have a prospect at the pinnacle of his value who isn’t going to displace Chipper and who, like Chipper, couldn’t make a successful transition to the OF.

    We have a 6-3 210 pound second year IF who backed up third and SS last year and who doesn’t have good zone ratings or range factors or fielding percentages at SS during his Major League tenure. He looks like he may hit the ball pretty well — Career OBP .339 SLG .389 — but add this caveat, he hasn’t played SS regularly since 2001.

    We also have two stud shortstop prospects that look to be 2 or three years away from the majors.

    We just lost our all-star 28 year old Shortstop who signed with the Dodgers for 13 million per year over the next 3 years. His career numbers are .348/.409. And while he’s been an inconsistent fielder over the course of his career, last year he looked like he had turned the corner and become one of the top defenders at his position.

    So what does JS do? He moves the BLOCKED top prospect for a 30 year old shortstop with career numbers of .345/.400 who had a bad defensive year last season but has been one of the better defenders at his position over his career. And they are going to pay this guy 5-6 million per year after the shortstop they lost set the market at 13 million per year.

    I hate giving up Marte as much as anyone. But I don’t have a problem with this trade. I think it is a very fair one. The Red Sox are gambling on Marte developing as projected and assume the risk of injury and failure in addition to the upside. The braves get a Shortstop who will hopefully produce more or less what the got out of Furcal for the next 3 years but do it for 5 million dollars.

    I am trying to figure out where this leaves us payroll wise but, I think we have room to make another move.

    I think our season will depend largely on the ability of McCann, Langerhans, Johnson, Jeff, and LaRoche to take steps forward.

  197. I blame Dan Ko…oh wait – I can’t do that anymore.

    Seriously though, calm down everyone. I agree with many that this isn’t a great trade, but it is certainly not the worst JS has done. If Renteria shows that his recent decline is a fluke (or just bounces back for a year)then it will turn out fine. I mean we were able to trade a prospect (yes a very good one) for an established major league player and $11 million. That seems pretty darn good to me. And there will be more Marte’s in the future – believe me.

    I would have rather tried Betemit at SS and moved Chipper or Marte to 1st, but the Braves obviously didn’t want to take that route. But what I’d really rather see is attention paid to closer. With the money we saved on SS, we could have signed Hoffman! And please everyone – stop talking about Lidge. I think his days of real effectiveness are now behind him. He is the next Wohlers, IMHO (see Lidge’s 2005 postseason.)

    Now here is a question – how would people feel about the Braves offering Frank Thomas a $1 million/1 year contract loaded with incentives to play 1st, and then using LaRoche and one of our many outfielders to trade for a good closer?

  198. Yes, Drew was instrumental in getting us a division title for one year. Great, throw it on the pile with the other 13. I’d rather see the championships. And I don’t see Renteria getting us to the WS this year, or the next three. I would much rather have seen Marte, Franceour, McCann, and several of the other younger players grow and play together for a couple years and see what they can bring us. I’m tired of seeing these one and two year rent-a-players go one and done.

  199. Do we need to be married to the closer idea? Because I’m not sure we can get one, so it may not be a good idea to get too dependent on that. Who would we get, and how much would we have to give up? The market seems extremely limited.

  200. It does hurt to lose Marte. You won’t see me saying it doesn’t.

    What I try to do is follow the logic of the deal and I can see the logic of this deal. It doesn’t mean I agree with the deal, per se (although I am fine with this one), but I can grasp the decision.

    I think the big thing here (and it has been broached in the press) is that Bobby wanted to go into the season with an established SS. Betemit is not an established SS. Renteria is.

    This is obviously very important to Bobby. Remember, one of the first things he did in 1991 was to insert toothpick-waver Rafael Belliard into the line-up. Why? Because Raffy was a good gloveman who didn’t make mental errors. The same thing is at work here.

    I wish Marte the best. I wish Furcal had signed. For those who were screaming “don’t give him $9 million,” would you rather have given Raffy the big purse and kept Marte or have the situation we have now. And don’t say neither, because we were not going into 2006 without an established SS.

    But hey, when I was in my 20s, I was cussing like a sailor over bad Braves’ deal after bad Braves’ deal. I mean, how many times did we trade, or trade for, Larvell Blanks? And don’t get me started on the Len Barker deal (even though I thought Bret Butler was kind of a drip).

    Enjoy your youth. And part of youth is the joy of getting upset. Sounds like an oxymoron, but it isn’t.

  201. BTW-2006 ZiPS Projections- More discussion fodder…

    Renteria .357 .419
    Furcal .352 .431
    Betemit .336 .406
    Marte .346 .457
    Chipper .383 .497

  202. Come June ’06, when Furcal is either hurt, or struggling to hit the ball out of Chavez Ravine, because we all know how much he likes to swing for the fences, and Marte is down at AAA Pawtucket, the Braves will have Renteria being the steady calming influence he served for the Cardinals. That is my stance.

  203. Niiiiiiiice. Why not throw away McCann for Baez while we’re at it?

    Also love the point about DeRosa being given 300 ABs. Why could we give that piece of crap 300 AB but not Betemit and/or Marte? I think it’s outstanding how Cox and Schuerholz are allegedly sooo great but yet they seem to pass on truly talented players while giving crap like Brogna, DeRosa, LaRoche, Lockhart (to name a few) all the AB they could want. I’m sure it’s because they know something we don’t. LMAO. Right.

  204. Well that MVP could’ve been moved to 1B to replace a mediocrity while Marte took over at 3B. As someone said earlier in this joke of a thread, Marte is the kind of player you make room for.

  205. I agree with you Corgy, but I was just saying that the Drew trade wasn’t that horrible for us. Drew did what we hoped he would do. And again, the Dodgers, being so smart, signed the now former Brave to a rediculous contract…I swear, LA is the dumbest front office in all of baseball.

  206. Boston will pay $8 million of the $26 million Renteria is owed for the next three seasons. In addition, the Red Sox must pay the $3 million buyout if his $11 million option for 2009 is declined.

    That makes it $5.33 per. 41% of what Furcal is making works for me.

  207. Part of Chipper’s deal was that he couldn’t be forced to move to another position???!!!!?? I see – he restructured his contract to pay for his favorite spot on the diamond. Takes a lot of the shine off that “team guy” image for me. So even if he say, can’t play third well in another year, he has to agree that it’s the case before he can play first. I can’t believe somebody agreed to that.

  208. Now how in the heck do we know that Chipper has that in his contract? Is there a source?? I’m curious about this b/c then it would take off some of the shine of this new deal.

  209. I am as big a fan of Chipper as anyone, but I agree with you spike. The guy’s body is breaking down. I’m at work and don’t have the time to look up stats, but I have to think he has played more games over a 10-year period than almost anyone in the game (possibly ever). But how many games has he missed the last two years? And can we honestly expect him to play at least 150 games at 3rd base each of the 3 years? I would say definitely by year 3 he has to move across the diamond, and if we had kept Marte, it could have been next year.

  210. I have two words for those who do not think that AAA guys can come up to the bigs and take over for overprice super stars….RYAN HOWARD.

    Last year, the Phillies could have traded away top prospect Ryan Howard since they had aging super star Jim Thome locked up to play first. What happens, Thome gets hurt for the entire year and Howard busts on the scene, improves the winning percentage of team and wins 2005 NL rookie of year. Fast forward, the Phillies trade Thome to White Sox for Aaron Rowand. Howard is slated to play 1B for the next 10 years.

    Chipper, with age and effects of taking the juice, is no longer a lock to stay off DL. My prediction, Chipper will not play 50 games this year. Marte could have really shined here in 2006 and showcased his talents. Andy Marte, as a Brave, could have been the 2006 version of Dwight Howard. Then we trade Chipper next off season.

    You want to talk about value, how much “value” does Mike Hampton have right now? When Chipper doesn’t play 50 games next year, ask me about his value?

    It still baffles me why our 2006 opening day IF did not look like this:

    1B: Chipper Jones – less injury prone position
    2B: Giles
    3B: Marte or Nomar
    SS: Betemit

    Then you utilize the speed of Langerhans for leadoff.

  211. Tom, that’s the stupidest thing I’ve ever heard. Look at how many at-bats the Kellys got (Roberto and Mike). What about Rafael Belliard, Quilvio Veras, Jermaine Dye, etc.?

  212. Totally agree with Rip. Boston’s sports radio station WEEI reported that Nomar was close to inking a one year $4M deal with the O’s to play LF and 1B.

    What’s wrong with using Nomar as a stopgap until Salty is ready? Instead we are stuck with Edgar the overrated for another three seasons.

  213. Sorry to have two negative posts in a row, but I can’t help it:

    Hey Rip, do you have any proof that Chipper is juicing, or is that just your “educated” reasoning? Also, if you want Nomar, you are probably going to have to pay around what we’re going to pay Renteria. If you look at it that way, this deal seems better. Your IF looks like a no-variables-considered MVP Baseball lineup. Betemit hasn’t played short full-time in four years, Nomar’s never played third, Chipper’s never played first, and your “anchor” is Giles, who barely plays above average second baseman. Considering our wealth of groundball pitchers, our defense would kill us. What’s next, we trade for Soriano so he can play in our right field? You’re killing me, Smalls.

  214. If the white guys comment was directed toward me, it was out of place. I wasn’t insinuating that Cox/Schuerholz only give 300 AB to white guys. Hell, Mondesi and Jordan got way more AB than they deserved last year and thanks to that idiotic arbitration offer to Jordan, that pusswad will end up with more AB than he deserves again.

  215. At the risk of getting ripped by Tennessee Brave for using Boston sources again, I listened to a Peter Gammons interview on WEEI radio and he said part of Chipper’s restructuing deal was that he doesn’t move off 3B for 5 years. WTF?

  216. Rip Ryan Howard is already 26, so in ten years he will be 36 and probably weighing about 280, so I don’t think he will still be manning 1st for the Phils, maybe the Nats or Tigers, but not the Phils.

  217. man, if all this was happening in say ’04 we would be drooling over this trade right here, give renteria a chance.

    Boston officials say he just never seems to be at a comfort zone, and being with bobby cox now will surely help that

  218. Now this I want to see/hear…
    Anyone/everyone who has been staunchly defending this trade and JS today, please defend the decision to offer arb to Jordan. And please try to use something more profound than JS led us to 14 straight division titles.

  219. My point was not where Howard will be playing in 10 years but Marte could have value like Howard a year from now.

    Robbie C is right – 1) it is impossible to switch positions 2) he is also right about the current IF which has Laroche and Renteria who are perennial MVP candidates. 3) Robbie is again right on our WEALTH of ground ball pitchers – we are Number #1 at getting ground balls – quantify that one Robbie. If that is the case, we should probably trade Andruw since the WEALTH of our pitching staff gets so many ground ball outs and there is no need for good outfielders. Bottom line – our pitching staff has NO identity.

  220. I don’t see why we bother offering Arb. to Jordan, maybe JS has intentions of trading one of his younger outfielders for an arm, or maybe he just thinks Jordan is a good clubhouse guy and all…

    beats me..

  221. Too much crying over spilt milk here. Let me spell this out for you guys. We have a hot prospect third baseman who can’t play anywhere else. We have a HOF caliber third baseman who, as far as he is concerned, has already sacrificied enough of his career when he moved to left and was subsequently injured. First base is not the cakewalk you all think it is, and it also is very hard on the hamstrings.

    Do the math, I see only one logical solution here. Trade the prospect.

  222. This not a bad trade at all! Marte is overhyped much as Capellan was! Remember how Capellan was supposed to throw 100mph! Marte may turn out to be a good or even very good player but not a great player.

  223. I follow both teams as well, but I also don’t come here to read what Gammons said on talk radio, or that Theo Epstein is a SoSH member. The information is cool and everything, but this is still a Braves site, and from what I can tell today, it’s pretty emotional in here with what this team has done. I would just prefer to read about our situation here, and when I want to, I can scoot over to the other site. But I’m not sure of anybody here who would rather discuss the Mark Loretta trade over what’s been going on with the Braves the last 24 hours.

    Jenny, sorry to call you out, and I hope you don’t think I’m rude. But I’m of the opinion that Red Sox talk stays at SoSH.

    By the way, about us….I think that most of us are more disgusted with losing Andy Marte as opposed to gaining Edgar Renteria (pending how the deal affects what we can spend on a closer). But if JS thought we could get more for him, he certainly would have done it. Maybe he jumped the gun, but it’s also possible he’s been looking into trading Andy for awhile (He and Beane talked about Hudson starting in July or so, if I recall). Which also might explain why he wasn’t playing in September. Same with Estrada–if he thought we could get more, we undoubtedly would have.

    We gave up a potential stud. Period. But as somebody pointed out, we didn’t get Royce Clayton.

  224. Thanks for the spelling lesson Grst, much appreciated.

    I don’t care how bad he looked shagging balls for 3 days, the team that let Ryan Klesko flounder and rumble around in left field, could have done the same with the ‘the prospect’ for 2 or 3 years, or however long it takes Chipper to start putting up Mike Lowell type numbers.

  225. They offered arb to Jordan, incase someone is stupid enough to want to sign him, then the Braves gain low round picks.

  226. Yeah and if no one else is stupid enough to sign him (and you can bank on it, no one else will) then we’re stuck with his useless arse. Brilliant move.

  227. First, let me say that I am the attorney and agent for Chipper Jones. Second, let me say that I personally negotiated Chipper’s deal with the Braves. That being said, any speculation that Chipper has either (i) ever taken steriods, or (ii) negotiated some sort of acknowledgement that he would not be moved off of 3B, are completely without merit, and quite frankly, actionable. It is beyond me how some coward can sit behind his keyboard, type in accusations and then put them out onto the web with absolutely no factual basis. I have been friends with Chipper for almost 30 years, and for anyone to suggest that he has taken steriods or that he renegotiated his deal with an understanding that he would not be moved is absolutely baseless. This is a guy that has done whatever it took to stay a Brave, keep his family in Atlanta, and help this team win. Say what you will about him, and please state your opinion, but you can never say that he hasn’t done everything he could to help this team.

    By the way, to clear up some other matters. (1)I am certain that Jordan was offered arbitration with the understanding that he would not accept it (for procedural reasons), (2) the Braves will have 7 picks of the 1st 60 picks in the June 2006 draft based upon losing Furcal and Farnsworth (they will replenish with these picks as they always do), (3) Andy Marte is a great prospect; however, the nature of the game dictates that trades happen sometimes, (4) the Braves get $11 million with this deal, so they get an All-Star SS that excelled in the NL before for a total of $21 million over 3 years. Tough to give up Marte, but Renteria is a good player for $7 million per year. Plus, the Braves get two draft picks as compensation in the first 60 picks for losing Furcal.

    Just wanted to give some of you perspective, and to assure you that someone is always watching. So, before you log-in under a fake name and spit out baseless accusations, I would assure you that you can be traced. I know for a fact that I will not read things such as this without reacting, so please make sure you know the facts first. Have a great day.

  228. Wow, thanks a lot for that post and for your perspective, BB. I completely agree with everything you say about the allegations that Chipper took steroids. Accusing someone of “juicing” is the new McCarthyism.

  229. Uh, okay. (1) Which procedural reasons would that be? (2) Why are you so certain that this is the case?

    I love when people tag on “All Star” to try and bolster their point. Who cares? The All Star game is a pointless popularity contest. Renteria is nothing special and certainly not worth Andy Marte. Wilson Betemit could’ve been used at SS and the Braves would (1) have $7 mil more per year to spend on other needs and (2) still have Andy Marte.

  230. Jordan will not accept arbitration. If he happens to sign with another team, the Braves will get a 2nd round draft pick, plus an additional compensation pick between the 2nd and 3rd rounds. So, they would get 2 more picks in the Top 100 picks.

  231. This is not really a bad deal. I hate to see Marte go, but it is more than a stretch to call him a future HOFer or even Matt Williams. Remember he is still a prospect. Most prospects come nowhere near their ceilings. If anything Marte’s future has begun to decline a bit since 2002.

    The player he reminds me of is a young Bobby Bonilla–which is not a bad thing to be. However, he had nowhere to play. He may very well put up great numbers in Fenway, but the important point is that he was not going to do it in Atlanta.

    The Braves, then, got a proven player (who admittedly has probably peaked) who should be useful for the next three years, for someone who might have a Bonilla like career and who was without a position. What makes the deal palatable is that it was only for Marte–though I would have been happy to trade Ovandy Suero and James Jurries.

    All told, this is not a bad deal.

    Of course, this is the real price of Chipper’s restructured contract.

  232. Thanks BB for clearing up the Jordan arb deal, I myself was not clear enough, with the not accepting part. Thanks as well for giving some people around here some perspective, and especially for making some realize that things that Gammons says are not always trustworthy.

  233. That being said, any speculation that Chipper has either (i) ever taken steriods, or (ii) negotiated some sort of acknowledgement that he would not be moved off of 3B, are completely without merit, and quite frankly, actionable. It is beyond me how some coward can sit behind his keyboard, type in accusations and then put them out onto the web with absolutely no factual basis.

    Thank you very much for coming here, Mr. Abbott, and please don’t take offense to my posting of your concern number (ii). This is what Peter Gammons said on WEEI, pretty much verbatim, and if you’d like to listen, it’s online at the WEEI Audio Vault under the Big Show archives. I’m glad to know it’s false. But I was just reporting what I heard, since Gammons is on occasion reliable. It appears that this time he was wrong.

  234. Food for thought –

    Furcal – 28 years old – (Career) .284, 10 HRs, 60 RBIs, $13 million per year

    Renteria – 29 years old – (Career) .288. 9 HRs, 65 RBIs, $7 million per year (cost to the Braves)

    Basically had to give up Marte for $6 million per year, plus the Braves got 2 Top 100 draft picks. Not my call to say whether this was good or bad, but these are the FACTS.

  235. Yeah and if no one else is stupid enough to sign him (and you can bank on it, no one else will) then we’re stuck with his useless arse. Brilliant move. we only offered with a guarantee that it wouldn’t be accepted. Same with Perez. So yes, yes it is a brilliant move.

  236. I’ll believe it when I see it. Bobby Cox seems to LOVE Jordan so I wouldn’t be a bit surprised if the arby offer is legit. We’ll see.

  237. (2) Why are you so certain that this is the case?

    Are your eyes stuck? He just told you:

    Second, let me say that I personally negotiated Chipper’s deal with the Braves.

  238. No problem Jenny. Peter is on most of the time, and I appreciate your comments. I listened to this interview, and it was almost said in passing, but it was said. This was never discussed, I promise. If Chipper gets to the point where he feels as if he is holding this team back at 3B, he will move. He always has done what he needs to do. But, in case anyone didn’t notice, the guy has played a gold glove 3B the last two years.

  239. They very well might bring back Jordan. Bobby does like him as a clubhouse presence, and with the payroll, it might be necessitated. But, it won’t be through the arbitration process. I promise you that. This simply gives them the option to sign him. Without offering arbitration, you cannot resign a player until May 1. So, it just leaves the door open. That’s all.

  240. Hey, Mr. Abbot – how did you score the email of BB@aol.com? Were you like subscriber number 1 or something? Nothing personal, but I ain’t buyin’ just yet.

  241. BB, I have to say thank you for helping our team with Chipper’s new contract. You are what a sports agent should be. The Anti-Boras.

  242. Hey Mac if you are out there I have a question for you. What is the record number of posts for one thread here. 300-350?

  243. Justin, it’s something like 435 for an extra-innings Padres game that Dan Kolb blew back in August (of course).

    Thanks, Mr. Abbott. I was afraid I was about to find a process server at my door ;-)

  244. And Spike, before you get mad at me, I promise I was just kidding. I try to come on here sometimes to talk to Braves fans. I represent quite a few of the guys, and I think it is pretty cool that you are so passionate. No hard feelings about anything.

  245. B.B., have you ever asked chipper how in the hell he made that diving grab in game 2 of the division series? the ball was freakin’ behind him and should have ended up in the outfield. that play coupled with the smoltz fist pump picks me up whenever i’m down. i guess i’m easy to please.

    damn nice play, though.

  246. Let’s not confuse healthy, impersonal skepticism for name calling, bub. Assuming you are legit, for the moment, care comment on the idea that Chipper has some guarantee of playing third?

  247. BB. As a player agent we all know that part of your job is to sell the player. You say above that Chipper has played a gold glove third for the past two years. How do you quantify this, or is that simply hyperbole?

    On another subject I am pretty sure that I speak for most when I say we appreciate what Chipper has done in restructing his contract for the Braves.

  248. Let’s not confuse healthy, impersonal skepticism for name calling, bub. Assuming you are legit, for the moment, care comment on the idea that Chipper has some guarantee of playing third?

    But it was funny, whereas none of your comments have been. Even if he was fake, that alone has added more than you have.

  249. The steroid comment is sadly funny, because it has been gone over so often. Braves supposedly had the Steroid purge of ’99. When the “mcsteroidism” started, all major players were put under the microscope. Chipper in an interview said he tried something like a steroid cream for a brief period back in 97, but stopped because he was feeling uncomfortable. And all someone ahs to do is look at his stats. Very few players have such consistent stats over the past 10 years, which itself rends the accusation baseless.

    and Mr.Abbott, thanks for your insight. And Chipper’s restructured deal was appreciated a lot in my baseball limited community. I know a couple of Mets fan who called him Chipper for a day instead of Larry :)

  250. Glad he was able to provide some humor for you. I am sorry that none of my comments have done likewise. Let me know when you are online and I’ll try to say something funny for you.

    Can you please explain the following though – Even if he was fake, that alone has added more than you have.?

  251. Yes, please do. I enjoy jokes.

    I think you understood that comment perfectly, as you responded to it.

  252. spike, Mr. Abbott has commented on the guarantee of 3B thing. He categorically denied it. I heard it from Peter Gammons and it was apparently wholly false. So I guess that’s the answer.

  253. Spike, I honestly was joking with you. I’m sorry if you took offense. You can definitely email me above if you would like. Like I said, no hard feelings.

    On the gold glove thing, there are certainly range factors and error totals that can be examined. Chipper has made 11 errors in the last 200 games, which is as good as any gold glove 3B in the last 10-15 years. He fields the slow roller better than about anyone in baseball, and his lateral range seems to have come back.

    He had certainly gotten into some bad habits when he moved off of 3B for the club a few years ago. No doubt about that. He was playing with “dead feet” and not moving to the ball. His feet have always been why he was so good there before. Now, you will see him playing with active feet and moving on instinct.

    The statement is only opinion, but it is certainly backed by some factual evidence. And, I think the Braves would agree.

  254. BB it is great you are on here, any chance Chipper could drop in one day and answer some questions too?

  255. He certainly might. My email address is above. Mac can certainly contact me. Take care to all. Good night.

  256. Here’s a suggestion if Chipper really can/does come on… Have a thread where people post questions for him, then Mac chooses the best 15-20 for Chipper to actually answer.

  257. Are we forgeting that Edgar was the best shortstop in the NL two years ago?

    You guys are right, you know much more about talent and baseball than JS and Bobby.

    JS is a genious. We get an All Star caliber shortstop, we get the other team to pick up 60 percent of his contract, all this for a player that we don’t have room for on the big club.

  258. While sabermetric analysis certainly has its value, its primary cultural influence has been to convince a lot of fairly intelligent young’uns that they could be better GMs than the guy running their favorite team — at least if that guy isn’t a young’un himself.

    As 50-pound stated succinctly above, sports fans have always griped about deals their teams make. But now people bemoan giving up prospects for all-stars instead of the other way around. Both gripes, however, are short-sighted and rather shallow in their perceptions.

    In this trade, I think the Braves made a solid move. While Renteria is unlikely to come close to his 2003 numbers, he’s much better than he showed either of the past two seasons. He was unsettled over his contract in 2004, and Boston was pretty predictably a disastrous move for a guy who obviously doesn’t have the personality to do well in the pressure-cooker of Boston and a huge contract.

    And for the sabermetric young’uns who think Edgar’s a bum, consider that he played nearly nine years in the majors BEFORE the age of 30 and that his statistical comp by age is Alan Trammell. Not a superstar or even a HOFer, but an high-caliber player at a key defensive position who played for 20 years. Renteria will be a solid contributor for years to come, almost certainly during his tenure with the Braves.

    Marte will be doing well if he has as good a career.

    The fact is the Braves improved their team for the next three years with a player who’ll be more solid if not as spectacular as Furcal while saving a sizable chunk of change. I don’t see how they could have made a better deal — this is much, much better than a Lugo deal. Renteria is not the player to get the Braves over the hump but a guy who’ll ensure that they can at least get to it.

  259. I skimmed most of the posts. 50poundhead is the most reasoned, but then, I’m over 50 as well. I often come to a parting of the ways with stat based arguments and comps, because stats can be used to argue both sides of any trade. I didn’t see much in Marte’s cup of coffee to gnash my teeth over losing him. Renteria is no doubt on the decline, but he is our best option for next year.

    Jenny, you sweet thing, I’m kinda over you, too.

  260. I wrote something like this above but it’s worth repeating here. I think Renteria is a good ballplayer and will be a good acquisition, especially at only 6MM per.

    “I think [Marte] can play in the big leagues right now,” Braves manager Bobby Cox said. “Unfortunately, he’s a third baseman and so is Chipper Jones.” In case anyone hasn’t noticed, our first baseman and crop of left fielders are spectacularly average. To cite a recent example, the Marlins were able to accomodate both Cabrera and Lowell in their lineup the last two seasons. Why couldn’t we do the same?

    Why did we have to give up Marte? According to Sox reports, they weren;t looking to move Renteria. If JS thinks we want/need him to play short even though Bobby says Betemit can handle it , I’m OK with that. But why Marte? I’ve only seen him in Richmond twice, but everything I’ve read says he can be an impact bat AND play plus defense at third. We gave up that for as BB said, “Six million dollars and a couple of draft picks.”
    Now if we were talking about pitchers I wouldn’t say a damned thing because the Braves have yet to make a big mistake trading pitchers since JS took over. But the hitters? Does anyone remember the 97-2001 Braves where we would make the playoffs and have automatic outs in the 6 or 7-9 spots. Cheap, quality hitters are not easy to develop. The focus has been pitching, pitching, pitching and it’s served us very well. It’s the moves like this that set us back. This isn’t getting a Drew or Sheffield, both of which had us move depth for quality. This is moving quality for slightly above average.

    Is this trade the end of the world? Definitely not and honestly we probably improved our 2006 ballclub. But Renteria for Marte just isn’t enough of an upgrade.

  261. This is a bad deal. I agree with the other posts, in 5 years when Chipper is done and Marte is a proven 20-30 home run guy we will hate this trade even more. Renteria is just not that much of an upgrade over what Betemit can give us starting role in my opinion. Also Marte could’ve played first, picking up the Julio role. JS hasn’t made many mistakes but this reeks of Klesko for Quilvio Veras(ugghh).

  262. If anybody is actually still reading this thread, I have a few comments.

    Anyone who is putting the blame on Chipper seriously needs to reconsider their view. This man is the franchise and just gave back $15 M. I have never seen a player do that before. It is obvious that the only position where he is comfortable is 3rd base.

    Let’s remember, Edgar Renteria is very good and very cheap ($6 M per including Boston’s money). He is much better offensively than Furcal or Lugo. And he has won a few gold gloves (although he was awful last year).

    Also, let’s remember the Mets traded Scott Kashmir for Victor Zambrano. Kashmir was a better prospect than Marte, and I think we all know that Renteria has more worth than Zambrano.

  263. Marte better than Frenchy? Why did they start WB at third instead of Marte? Apparently Marte is not even better than WB right now.
    Or did WB start because Marte of curing cancer or some other ridiculous projection?

    How great would it be if Sox trade marte to TB and we get him back for a couple of pitchers? Baez too?

  264. I think J.S. dropped the ball on this one. We traded away our biggest chip from our farm system for a shortstop who is on the wrong side of 30, makes a boatload of money (even with Boston paying a fraction), has had two consecutive seasons of an OPS in the low 700s, and if you think he can pick it, he committed 30 errors last season. All Schuerholz did was to trade a future star third baseman for an older version of Wilson Betemit. What am I missing here? and doesn’t the team have higher priorities? like closer? another starter since Hampton’s return is so uncertain?

    I know the Braves have made it a tradition of making lemonade out of lemons, but I think this year, the task is too daunting. Let’s keep our young stars and build another foundation rather than acquiring 30 year old shortstops on the decline.

  265. I’m a little surprised that only one person mentioned Eric Campbell. Once he comes up we may not think of this much at all. Also, if we still had Marte, there wouldn’t be any place you could play him. Essentially, there really isn’t much difference between Furcal and Renteria, and we would be paying Renteria about 7 million less than we would for Furcal, plus getting the extra draft picks. Right now, can anyone tell me that Marte is worth 7 million dollars and two high draft picks?

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