251 thoughts on “He’s gone, he’s gone!”

  1. The ’05 scouting report didn’t have much to say, so this is from ESPN’s ’04 assessment of Obermueller:

    “Although he shows good movement at times, he lacks a dominant pitch and will need to master location to stick in the majors. HE ALLOWS WAY TOO MANY BASERUNNERS AND HOMERUNS. A former shortstop and center fielder at the University of Iowa, Obermueller was a force at the plate in 2004. It’s been suggested that he could emulate Brooks Kieschnick’s role as a pitcher/pinch-hitter.”

    Sounds like an upgrade to me…

  2. This is hilarious. Kolb back to the Brewers, it will be interesting to see if he goes back to closer or is just used in relief. Although it does suck we can’t get Capellan back!

  3. Turnbow is the Brewers’ closer. Kolb will be, at best, a setup man, even if Mike Maddux can somehow make him into an acceptable pitcher for a second time.

  4. It does not matter who we got: at least we are free of the Kolb. Now, watch him pull a Reggie Sanders on us…

  5. With our luck, Kolb will return to form and at least be an above-average pitcher. So, we get him while he absolutely sucks, plus give up arguably our most valuable prospect at the time, for the pleasure of seeing him suck in person.

  6. A helpful Brewers fan tells me that Obermueller was drafted as an outfielder, so he’s still learning how to pitch, and his arm is “younger” than most pitchers at 28. With some time at Richmond he may yet contribute later in the year or in ’07–just needs to learn not to nibble.

  7. We could have traded Kolb for two water bottles and a bat boy to be named later and it would be an upgrade! The important thing is the salary dump.

  8. Whatever this guy does will be a bonus. Stick him in the minors and see what happens, we win on that trade no matter what.

    Reports are that Hoffman is off the market as he’s staying in San Diego.

  9. Here’s what I don’t get. Couldn’t the Brewers have waited until the Braves waived him then signed him for less as a free agent?

    Last year I sponsored Estrada and Kolb on Baseball-Reference. Both have been traded. What does this mean for my most recent sponsorships: Marte, McCann, and Francoeur?

  10. Gordon Edes at the Globe is saying a Renteria deal with the Braves could go down tonight. Take it for what it’s worth. I never go to bed before 2AM anyway.

  11. Seriously, how hard would it be to get Bill Hall? Take on Tomo Ohkas arbitration case, give em Horacio Ramirez, Jorge Sosa, and Chuck James, and voila, problem solved.

  12. Perhaps this is a stupid question, but when they say the arbitration deadline is midnight tonight, is that EST or CST? Because the winter meetings are in Dallas. I’m wondering. It would seem strange to make it be at midnight EST when all the GMs and decision makers are on Central Time. But this is MLB.

  13. Now that we have Obermueller on our staff, we need to bring back Oberkfell to coach in the orgranization.

  14. The Cubs just picked up Juan Pierre and John Mabry today. Adding them to their already impressive list of Bobby Howry and Scott Eyre, they’ve got to be the overwhelming favorites to bring the World Series trophy back to the National League.

    Seriously, why don’t they fire Jim Hendry? Why the hell did Ed Wade last as long as he did in Philly? Why did LaMar last as long as he did in Tampa Bay? Why is it that clubs are willing to fire their managers left and right, but the incompetent general managers are nigh on untouchable?

  15. P.S. That being said, I realize that Cam Bonifay doesn’t get to wear the G.M. hat anymore, and that has to count in the favor of the collective intelligence of humanity.

  16. Because all of the above mentioned GM’s came from either suck ass teams or suck ass cities. Even if they were great places to play, they are up against the evil empires of baseball for free agents. Even when they do have the money to spend, they spend it unwisely because they are under so much pressure to win. Just my opinion

  17. Toronto just picked up Lyle Overbay for Shea Hillenbrand and Dave Bush. That is the first halfway decent move they’ve made this offseason, IMO.

    Here’s a poll question: of the 30 GMs, who is the dumbest?

  18. What source do you guys feel is the quickest for finding out about MLB transactions? Some of you (like jenny) always find out about moves before I do, and I want to be in the know, darn it.

  19. And I just found this:

    A Braves Insider, Bill Shanks is reporting that the Renteria to Atlanta deal is imminent. Renteria for Marte and the Sox would pay something like this to Atlanta

    “Red Sox will pay 0 mill in 2006, 1 mill in 2007, 2008, and pay 3 million buyout for 2009. Average is 8 mill per year.”

    From SoSH, no link provided, but wasn’t Shanks right last time?

  20. And Stu, I’ve been using Boston sources for 3 days. The Sons of Sam Hornguys are snobby and I would not advise the pain in the butt it takes to post on there, but they are very quick in picking things up and are usually dead-on. I actually found out about the Estrada and Kolb trades over there first.

  21. So, his contract isn’t terrible (from what I gather, we’ll owe about 16 million over just 2 seasons), but he’s still not worth giving up Marte for, in my opinion. I will be crushed if this goes through, which, by all indications, is a certainty.

  22. I do not like Marte for Renteria. I think Renteria is done, finished, and not worth $5 million a year, let alone $10 million. (Or $9 million, if the Sox will be paying a whole million a year. Whoop de doo.)

    I’m not in the “don’t trade Marte” camp; I just think if you’re going to trade someone like him, you get more for him. This isn;t even like it would have been to have traded Betemit last offseason – Marte still has options, so it’s not a case of he’s on the MLB roster or gone.

  23. I have a general ranking of stupid GMs in my head, and if this trade goes through, JS is moving up from the bottom. The more I think about this, the dumber it is. I really see no difference between Renteria and Betemit at this point (okay, yes, there is a difference, but I’m speaking in very general terms here); questionable gloves, pretty good bats. The difference is a HUGE drop in price and a fair drop in age for Betemit and the loss of Andy Marte when we didn’t need to. I’m mad. It hasn’t happened yet, but I’m mad.

  24. My prediction: Kolb saves 40 games in 06 and at the trade deadline Bill Shanks reports that the Braves got the used Jock Strap afterall when Obermue*^@r is sent to Tampa Bay in a 3-way.

    Sorry a long day of keeping up with all the trade hooplaa in between studying for finals has me all looper.

  25. More updates: possible trade b/w Natspos and Rangers, Wilkerson for Soriano, Wickman re-signed with Cleveland. So JS cannot go after him. Good.

  26. Man, those SOSH guys are reaming the Braves front office for this one. I wish JS would pull a Schilling and start reading SOSH. If the other teams fans are this happy about a trade, you’re probably doing something wrong. I’m going to be thoroughly disgusted when the Sox pawn Lowell off on the Twins and Marte is the AL ROY this year. Off to cry myself to sleep.

  27. That’s exactly what I was thinking as I read their Winter Meetings thread, which has a new post added approximately every 4 seconds. If they’re so happy, there is something seriously wrong. The SoSH guys are elitist, but they’re smart. This is a bad, bad deal. The only comfort is that we’re not paying all of Renteria’s overblown contract. Who could have thought a Theo Epstein brainfart could come back to bite US in the butt?

    I’m hoping Shanks is wrong and will print a crotchety correction any time now.

  28. In the face of all the chatter I still can’t believe that this trade could be happening. It just doesn’t make sense. Everybody here, everybody at SoSH, everybody everywhere thinks this would be a one-sided deal. I have to think that JS would think so too.

    If this were actually about to happen, and you were GM of any other team, wouldn’t you think to yourself, “Boston’s going to get Marte for Renteria? I could do better than that.” In otherwords, what’s stoping Oakland from offering something a little better than Renteria to try to snag such a great prospect? Marte should command more than Renteria or Lugo, and I just can’t believe in these stupid rumors.

    Please, please just be stupid rumors.

  29. Maybe Alex was right and this is all just an elaborate smokescreen and JS will come back with a real good whopper out of nowhere tomorrow morning.

  30. I’ve tried reading SOSH but all I get is depressed.
    Something just does not seem right about this whole thing? If we complete this, then JS must feel pretty desperate. I’ve gotta get off the computer. This is all too weird.

  31. “A helpful Brewers fan tells me that Obermueller was drafted as an outfielder, so he’s still learning how to pitch, and his arm is “younger” than most pitchers at 28. With some time at Richmond he may yet contribute later in the year or in ’07–just needs to learn not to nibble.”

    Yeah he was an OF at Iowa. He can touch the mid90s IIRC, still hasn’t done much and isn’t especially likely to do too much but hes better than nothing

  32. The first thing Obermueller needs is a nickname. (Of course, if you ask me, the first thing every ballplayer needs is a nickname, but I’m old-fashioned.)

    “Moose” would be ideal, but I’d take “Zip,” “Plunk,” “Bluto,” “Horse,” or “Sarge.”

    Anyone else have any ideas? And what are we gonna call Cormier and Villareal? I vote for “France” Cormier and “Red” Villareal.

  33. Per ESPNews and Rotoworld, Soriano traded to the Natspos for Wilkerson, Terrmel Sledge (love the name, don’t know if I spelled it right), and a PTBNL.

  34. at least you guys only have to see the news on SoSH. I surrounded by this nonsense.

    On the 11:00 news they called Marte “the Braves’ hotshot prospect.”

    The radio stations have him at their AAA club for a few months.

    The city wants to trade Lowell and have Marte and Youkalis play for the spot. they practically have in penciled into the lineup.

    this makes me sick. edgar frickin’ renteria.

    If the fans had any say, they’d give JS all of the money owed to Renteria. they want him gone.

  35. If this trade goes through, then it’s two panic trades in two years (Kolb being the first). And we still don’t have an established closer. If JS is panicking enough to get Renteria like this, he’s panicking enough to sign someone like Looper.

    These are not the lessons I want Dayton Moore to be learning for the future.

  36. I think “Bungle Jim” would be more appropriate, actually. That’s a terrible trade for the Nats. Wilkerson is actually pretty good, and they’re giving up 3 players for a guy with terrible home/road splits, awful OBP and K/BB ratios, and the worst defense in MLB going to a hitter’s cemetery and a crappy field full of divets. Nice work, Jim!

  37. Um… Don’t the Natspos still have Vidro under contract? They going to move Soriano to the outfield?

    The literal translation of Obermueller would be “Overmiller”, if that helps. It’s not very good.

  38. In the sense that High Life is truly super Miller… but then I went and misspelled Wes’ last name. So maybe I’ll stop with the beer jokes.

  39. didn’t they say it was a dark day in Atlanta when they traded Dale Murphy away? I seem to recall that worked out pretty well for the Braves….

  40. Mac, do not question the retarded moves of the Natspos! They keep helping us out, even when our GM appears poised to make one of the most retarded trades in recent team history!

    Of course, “recent” is pretty darned recent, since Kolb infested the city only a year ago.

  41. Ugg. Well, if this deal gets done, I guess I’ll manage to deal with it. I don’t think Renteria is “done” by any stretch. I think he’ll put up above-average numbers and play above-average defense. My problem with this deal is that I think Betemit will also provide above-average offense, sot he only upgrade is from average defense (or worst-case, slightly below average defense), and I’m certain that I don’t think that’s worth Andy Marte. Sure, it gives us depth at SS that is nice to have and allows our other SS prospects a good 2-3 years to develope in the minors, but I just can’t help feeling that an upgrade to a power hitter in LF or 1B would have been a better way to go. Surely something like LaRoche/Marte could have brought in Adam Dunn, right?

  42. The Braves and Red Sox met three times on Tuesday. If the Braves acquired Renteria, they likely would move second baseman Marcus Giles into the leadoff spot. The Braves were rebuffed in an effort to land Indians outfielder Coco Crisp, who could have filled the leadoff role. They also made an ill-fated attempt to acquire Astros shortstop Adam Everett.

  43. I would guess that means one of his ancestors wasn’t just the miller, but the head miller. I suppose that was impressive at the time.

    Let’s just hope he’s not Kolb Lite.

  44. Yeah, I read that on FoxSports earlier. If true, why were we trying to acquire Adam Everett? It’s lines like that one that make me think JS is getting desperate and is therefore willing to do something dumb like the Marte-Renteria trade. I must say, I’d rather have Renteria than Everett. But really, neither one would be vastly preferable.

  45. Also, is there a possibility that we’ll move Betemit after we bring in Renteria? I mean, if we’re able to flip him somewhere once we have a SS secured (and get some value out of it….), I wouldn’t be too mussed about the entire afair.

  46. Renteria had a bad year, no doubt. He hit a bit below his career norm, and fielded atrociously. Anybody else think the vaunted mavens of SoSH might be looking solely at Renteria’s 2005 season in their lust to get rid of him? Those folks are preconditioned to mistrust — they crave an outlet for their precious mystique of suffering, and found it in Renteria. The trade may favor the Sox, I’m not saying it doesn’t, but I don’t think it’s the fleecing it’s being made out to be. 2005 looks out of context for Renteria’s career — if he returns to his norms we’ve got a reliable shortstop who we know is durable and can hit a little. The amount of salary the Sox are willing to swallow will be the critical factor in whether this is a decent trade, IMO.

  47. One thought: with the Rangers now flush with OFs, perhaps we could move Betemit for Mench? They move Young to 2B (IIRC, that’s his natural position) and plug Betemit in at SS, and unload a power-hitting OF to ATL. Just hypothesising….

  48. I’m with mraver — surely Marte has more value on the trade market than this. I feel like this deal won’t actually happen unless the terms are somehow different. Remember how we were giving up Marcus for Hudson last year? Didn’t happen. And just yesterday it was Marte for Lugo. Reports are that the D-Rays wanted more, but maybe that’s wrong, maybe the braves did. Maybe (gasp) a reporter at the winter meetings got the details wrong. I mean, we’re basing all of this on Bill Shanks and Steve Phillips. Somebody is even reporting that we wanted Adam Everett, and that’s just dumb.

  49. “I wish JS would pull a Schilling and start reading SOSH.”

    Sometimes I can’t believe the negativity at this site. All Schuerhoz gets is award after award after award for player development/roster management, beside the ultimate respect of peers, and now we want him to take advice from a bunch of losers who think they know something about how to build a baseball team. It makes me want to barf. Just shut up and let the man do his job. I would say he’s earned it.

  50. Well, my problem with guys who had abnormally-bad-compared-with-the-rest-of-their-career years last year is steroid testing. I don’t know who did what or when, but I think red flags should go up on guys whose normal production dropped noticeably last year. Renteria fits that bill, and I wouldn’t risk Marte and 16 million dollars over 2 seasons on that gamble.

  51. I want to agree with you, sansho, but if you look at the numbers, it’s not really supported. He’s been on a steady decline since 2003. Yes, he was good then. But that was over 2 years ago. And we are allegedly giving up a guy who could be the next Miguel Cabrera. Miguel Cabrera > Edgar Renteria. Also, Andy Marte’s salary

  52. The Braves have sure brought in some crappy retreads for shortstops, though. Kurt Abbott, Rey Sanchez, Ozzie Guillen, Walt Weiss, and Rafael Belliard were good enough for us then–Bobby was just quoted yesterday as saying that he didn’t mind a leadoff man who walked 12 times in a 600 at-bat season!–then why can’t we be satisfied with Wilson Betemit, who outhits all of them?

  53. And Michael, some of the guys on SoSH are actually in the Red Sox front office. I’m not saying they’re major players there or anything of the sort(although John Henry does post there, along with Curt Schilling, and Theo Epstein used to before he went into hiding), but there are Red Sox employees there. It’s not exclusively a bunch of fanboys.

  54. Well, Michael, if you want to settle for the occasional terrible trade because most of the trades we make are successful, that’s fine. But, in my opinion, the goal should be to always make good trades, and trading Marte for Renteria is not good.

    In other words, yes, JS has done a lot for the Braves; however, he shouldn’t be given a free pass if he’s not currently doing what’s best for the club.

  55. I think Michael’s point is that we don’t KNOW what Schuey is doing for the club, because other than getting rid of Estrada and Kolb he hasn’t actually done anything yet.

    If he gets rid of Marte I’ll be angry. But he hasn’t done it yet.

  56. Well, if that’s Michael’s point, he needs to read mine a little better before calling me out. All I’m saying is trading Marte for Renteria is stupid and that if JS is considering it, he should think twice, given that Sox fans are jumping for joy.

    I’m not angry yet. But I’m incredibly nervous.

  57. That’s why I’m going to overuse the words “allegedly” and “supposedly” until they pull the trigger on this thing in the hopes that it’s a dud.

    To answer Mac’s earlier question about Soriano and Vidro, the following quote was on ESPN:

    “With Jose Vidro already entrenched at second base, it’s believed that the Nationals would move Soriano to left field.”

  58. Or better yet, Betemit + KJ(Lerew?) + Thomson(HoRam?) for Teixiera. Texas wants arms, and Wilkerson can play 1B. :-)

  59. Stu, I hate to reduce it to this, but the fact remains that no one on this board, including me and you are in fact John Schuerholz. And until we’ve had a career full of building successful, division and championship winning baseball teams, I would think we should all just take a step back and breathe for a few minutes.

    Sure, its fun to talk about whether we like a trade or not, but geez, give the guy a break. Neither of us know better than Schuerholz what a good trade is, and I don’t think you would disagree with me on that.

  60. Like I said, Michael, you just keep blindly submitting to JS, regardless of the moves. I’ll create my own opinion of what he does.

  61. OK, HERE is the article from the Braves official website. A couple of notes:

    -why is this suddenly for Andy Marte and somebody else? Losing Marte is bad enough.
    “Braves sources have confirmed they are close to completing the deal. But the main sticking point is the amount of money the Red Sox will provide.” Not good.
    -JS seems desperate per this quote. “We’re working to get a shortstop on all fronts,” Braves general manager John Schuerholz said. “Every place we can look, we’re looking.” John, you have one. His name is Wilson Betemit, and your manager has expressed confidence in him.


  62. I gotta agree with Michael. You guys make it sound like we’re the Pirates where we give away players or something. Nothing has happened yet.

  63. Yes Stu, Schuerholz has sent the AOL/Time Warner “reprogramming” team over here and zapped me into submission. I just have tremendous respect for the job he does and I don’t think calling him out on a trade he hasn’t made yet (or even if he did make it) is a little presumptuous for some hacks like you and me to be calling “stupid”. Wait…Schuerholz Jr. is stabbing me with the cattle prod….

  64. Wait we have a shortstop, but all the closers are gone. Who are we going to get to close? Why can’t we get Lugo, isn’t B.J. Upton going to start in Tampa? The D-Rays are damn nuts. I can’t believe that the city of Tampa has a team and MLB lets dumb ass fools run the team. IF I were the DRays i would have sent three people for Marte.

  65. guys this has probably been mentioned and shot down within minutes, but what if we sent Marte and say one of our young outfielders ( langerhans, Johnson ).

    as doubtful as it sounds, do you guys think Wilson can play left field?


  67. I really don’t like this deal. Gammons said that Renteria could become a .330 hitter again, and if he could, I would be all for this deal. Odds are, though, that he won’t and we may be stuck with Wilson Betemit at 10 million per. It does help that Boston is picking up some of his paycheck, and if you project Renteria to be somewhere in between his last two years’ statistics and what Gammons is projecting him to return to, then it’s not a bad deal. But even if Renteria is a .300 hitter and good for 45-50 extra base hits, then we’re still giving up Marte who could potentially give us close to that in BA and as much, if not more, power and have him on lockdown for the next 6 years.

    In the end, I’m in the boat with Michael and I’m going to go with Schuerholz’s knowledge and experience. At face value, the trade may look like it stinks, but we also don’t know as much about these two players as John does, so who knows how differently he may be looking at Marte and Renteria.

    I suppose I just spent two paragraphs basically saying, “Ehh… it could go either way.”

  68. Since when to Braves sources ever leak or confirm anything tho? at least anything thats REALLY going to happen. JS runs a tight ship

  69. Normally, NMS, yes. But he is dealing with Boston here and they leak like a bad diaper, to the point that they may have actually accomplished the unique feat of driving their GM out of town. I would not put too much stock into that. We kept it under wraps pretty well, I think. It started getting out on Boston’s end, was the problem. Their media is nuts.

  70. NMS, Red Sox guys leak everything to Gammons. IF Gammons says the Sox are going to do something, then it is law.

  71. Hey, Mac, SoSH guys are quoting this site’s forums now. I knew they were looking for a “decent Braves message board,” guess they found one!

  72. Renteria could fail a physical. Are we about to get stuck with a terrible contract? Have the Sox offered JS the GM job or something? WOuldn’t that be wild if after he pulled off this deal and then wen tot the Sox? Ugh, I’m going to bed.

  73. Now they’re talking about throwing in another “high-caliber prospect” to get more money out of the Red Sox. This could mean:

    A) A prospect the organization has soured on, which the rest of baseball doesn’t realize, or
    B) What it says, a good prospect for money.

    I’m thinking A, because if it’s B and thus really about money, why don’t we just save the damn money and play Betemit?

  74. HERE is the latest AJC article on the Renteria thing. Sounds like Tampa might still be involved. Maybe they will be inept enough to screw this up, but it really sounds like JS is desperate and something will get done. I just don’t understand why. What’s wrong with Betemit that we have to give up so much to avoid playing him?

    Also interesting that Bobby is at the meetings.

  75. no way marte is not getting traded.

    “I think he could play right now,” Cox said of Marte, the Braves’ top-rated prospect. “Unfortunately he’s a third baseman and Chipper Jones is, too.”

  76. So you trade LaRoche, move Chipper to first, and put Marte at 3B. This is not that complicated. Tons of teams have needs at first base. Chipper has been willing to take pay cuts and switch positions for the good of the team. Why would he say no?

    And if this is how we’re spending his pay cut, I wish he’d just get his money. I’d rather think the money is going to fund a massive family vacation to Barbados or an addition to his house than dumping top prospect talent for a mediocre, overpaid SS.

  77. Hey I totally agree. Thing is the Braves don’t seem to. And their opinion it what matters, and that really sucks.

  78. Yet another problem with this deal: I will be forced to waste my entire day tomorrow glued to my computer and ESPN to see if this deal has gone down.

  79. So…why’d we offer arbitration to Brian Jordan and Eddie Perez? Is this one of those things where they’ve agreed to decline it just so anyone stupid enough to grab them owes us a low-grade draft pick?

    Note that Julio is not on that list, so bye to him.

  80. You’ve got to be kidding me. We must be assuming that if they accept arb, they’ll get such ridiculously low salaries that it won’t matter. Such assumptions are often misguided, because the arb process is totally in favor of the players.

  81. Apparently Franco has a 2 year deal from some other team and the Braves may be leery of being stuck in a contractual bind with Franco if he did accept arbitration — http://atlanta.braves.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20051208&content_id=1278833&vkey=news_atl&fext=.jsp&c_id=atl

    I think it either spells that we’re going to see a LOT of LaRoche at 1b next season or there is another move coming to shore up that position. I’m still not convinced that we’re going to get Edgar Renteria, though I’m not as sour on it as most are here.

  82. The article also says that both were likely offered arbitration with the guarantee that they will not accept. Perez apparently wants to play another year somewhere, whereas Jordan’s intentions are unclear…it’s a move designed to get the Braves some draft picks, it appears.

  83. Been a Braves fan for over twenty years but it looks like ******* Edgar Renteria is going to be the end of it. This is like a bad dream you can’t wake up from. We are getting fleeced by Larry Lucchino. Unbelievable.

  84. Boston fan here, and while it’s true that Boston will gain more on this deal long-term, this is a situational trade to get Atlanta the best team next year. On top of being an historically great shortstop, Renteria is an excellent teammate and professional that will be valuable on a young team. There is a good chance he reverts to better form next year – there can be no place on earth worse to try to rebound from an off-year than Boston.

    It’s never a good feeling to lose a great prospect – if Beckett’s arm flies into the stands next year I’ll be pretty pissed off watching Hanley and Anibel S. tear through the Florida system – but this is not a terrible outcome for Atlanta. Certainly not if Renteria’s at ~$8 Mil a year, as compared to the insanity prevalent in the free agent market now.

    Just trying to make you feel a little better in the event this goes down :) Good luck.

  85. The difficulty is that we’re used to being the ones consoling the other team’s fans: “Sure, Charles Thomas will do just fine out there, don’t worry…”

  86. Switching gears for juuuuuust a second, what do you guys think about trying to get Shea Hillenbrand from the Blue Jays to play 1B?

    He hit .291 with 18 homers and 82 RBI last year, and hit .310 the year before.

    After trading for Overbay, the Jays need to dump a few corner guys. They also need to lose some salary. He made $3.8 million last year, and I couldn’t immediately find what he’s due in 2006. Still, he’s certainly an upgrade over LaRoche.

    How about it?

  87. Hey, perhaps not offering arbitration to Franco means Marte will be our new first baseman! He can beat out LaRoche easily!

    I am still keeping hope. In my mind, the Braves can get a lot more for trading Marte than just Renteria and the freaking four millions.

  88. Marte will be way better than Hillenbrand. 18HR and 82 RBIs are not what I want to see from a first baseman…damn, LaRoche can do that now at a fraction of the cost!!!

  89. “Normally, NMS, yes. But he is dealing with Boston here and they leak like a bad diaper, to the point that they may have actually accomplished the unique feat of driving their GM out of town. I would not put too much stock into that. We kept it under wraps pretty well, I think. It started getting out on Boston’s end, was the problem. Their media is nuts.”

    I was talking abotu the Braves source said…yada yada….line

  90. We are getting fleeced by Larry Lucchino. Unbelievable.

    Actually, we have no idea who we’re getting fleeced by, as the Red Sox have brought 26 quasi-GMs with them. But since I hate Larry Lucchino and he is very adept at fleecing people, I will go with your assumption, nyb. I think we brought this on ourselves; there is no WAY Jed Hoyer walked up to JS and went, “So, hey, how about Renteria for Marte?” They must have been jumping all over themselves when we expressed interest, as they seem to have abandoned their Wells and Manny projects and are beating this one to death. Indicating that once again, it’s a bad deal. Even the Sox brass think it’s too good to be true. Our hopes are:

    1)JS sleeps on it, realizes it’s retarded, and nixes the whole thing.
    2)John Henry’s aversion to paying guys to play for other teams kills it.
    3)Tampa Bay gets in and mucks around and messes the whole thing up.

  91. And NMS, there was little point in denying the rumor if it was true once it started leaking all over the place from the Red Sox end. It would require a bald-faced lie.

  92. Guys, I hate to break it to you, but Marte isn’t playing first or the outfield. Chipper isn’t moving either.

    Believe me, I don’t want a big prospect like Marte gone either, but he’s not changing positions and neither is Chipper. Ergo, Marte is gone.

    LaRoche also hit .259 last season, and struck out more than Hillenbrand despite having more than 150 fewer at bats.

    Hillenbrand has averaged .288 over the last 4 1/2 seasons.

    Besides, do you really want LaRoche as your everyday first baseman? Me neither.

  93. Why isn’t Chipper moving? He went to LF for Vinny freaking Castilla. He’s taken a pay cut to give us more payroll flexibility. Why would he not move?

  94. Just realized we didn’t offer arbitration to Farnsworth. Doesn’t that lose us a draft pick? And if so, why didn’t we–it isn’t even close to a Maddux situation: we’d have loved Farns back for 1 year at arbitration price.

    Just trying to make sense of some things.

  95. Darren, I don’t want either LaRoche or Hillenbrand to be the first baseman, that’s pretty much summarized my feeling.

    No, Marte did play first base for a couple games last year at Richmond. It was reported over at the “Future Braves” site earlier in the season.

  96. Well, can never trust Fox or anything Ken Rosenthal reports. In fact, I have stopped trusting Peter Gammons’ Red Sox-related information.

  97. I could have sworn I saw him saying he didn’t want to change positions again, but I may be confusing that with him not wanting to go to the outfield.

    Forget I said anything. Carry on!

  98. It’s ok Darren. This is good conversation. I think Marte did say something like this, but it was after his left field experience. Heck, Chipper said the same thing too. So, I don’t blame Marte for saying that.

    First base, however, is completely different. How many third basemen have changed position over to first base? Thome and Pujols come to my mind immediately.

  99. Just so there’s no confusion, from mlb.com:

    Franco was one of three Atlanta free agents who were not offered arbitration by the time Wednesday’s deadline passed. The departed duo of Rafael Furcal and Kyle Farnsworth, along with Eddie Perez and Brian Jordan, were all offered arbitration.

    The only ones not offered were Franco, Hollandsworth, and Powell. Everyone else was offered.

  100. One would think switching corners wouldn’t be that big of a deal, but I could be wrong, people can be really anal about their red stapler. I’m wondering if that was a condition of Chippers salary move. As in, he reworks his pay and gets to stay at third. I dunno, just late night speculating, which is all anyone has at this point.

    That said, thanks Mac for not having your blog set up like SOSH. That interface gives me a headache.

  101. That Soriano deal is hilarious. The Nats somehow creatively found a way to make their lineup worse without giving up Nick Johnson. Wilkerson’s a better hitter than Soriano and he gets on base a bunch more. The deal would be okay if they were playing Soriano at second, where his offense is pretty good for the position, but as a straight outfield swap, they lose offense AND give up two additional players. It’s like the Nats live in a strange world where Arlington doesn’t pad your numbers, and RFK doesn’t supress them.

    Verducci’s calling the three-way dead, but only because the Red Sox wouldn’t give up cash.

    Boston Herald reports that the new deal is sticking on money, too, as the Braves want the Sox to pay half Renteria’s contract ($14.5 mil). They speculate a compromise will be reached with the Braves paying $7.5-$8 million, which is in line with the Shanks report that has the Braves paying an average of $8 million a year.

    kc, I’m based in the central time zone of the United States. I just have problems sleeping.

  102. Via the SOSH blog:

    FA Shortstops not named Nomar:
    Clayton, Royce SS ARI
    Gomez, Chris SS BAL
    Gonzalez, Alex SS FLA
    Reese, Pokey SS SEA
    Sanchez, Rey SS NYY

    Keeping hope alive.

    I have problems sleeping too. Obv?

  103. And by keeping hope alive, I mean that I hope we come to our senses and realize that we don’t have to make a desperation move for a SS when we have WB available to fill that gap as well as anyone available.

  104. Hmm, the Pirates seem to be shopping Craig Wilson, who might be an interesting fit. He could split time between first and left, and give us some extra power (.840 career OPS) at both (especially at first against lefties, when LaRoche is helpless). They might be interested in Kelly Johnson and a pitcher, and then we’d still have Langerhans as a defensive replacement and lefty bat off the bench–and he seems to hit best late in games anyway.

    He’s not that expensive, either, and has something to prove after a season in which he missed time with a fractured hand.

  105. Drew, I had Wilson on my fantasy team when he is eligible to be a catcher, which he was great, but he is terrible as an outfielder!

    I don’t think the shortstop problem is as troubling as the closer issue. The Braves are out of closer options!!!

  106. I hate the idea of giving up any prospects for Renteria. Lugo I could deal with for a year(though again, not for prospects, especially Marte), but why take Edgar for what is it….3 years? We are stockpiled in the system with SS talent. Escobar is close and Elvis will follow soon after.

    If we do get Renteria, here’s my prediction:
    Escobar will switch to second at Myrtle Beach/Mississippi next year, Giles will bolt after the 2006 season, Escobar becomes the new second baseman for 2007, and Andrus takes over when Renteria’s contract is up. I could live with that scenario! But at the expense of Marte? I just don’t know. Trade Marte for something we need, like a closer…..

  107. It looks like the Devil Rays are out. The deal from what I have been reading will happen. The Braves will give the Red Sox Andy Marte and another top prospect, and the Red Sox give us Edgar Renteria and cash.

  108. new idea:

    as jenny noted, the red sox players, front office, even the gm have been known to read SoSH and make comments. And the guys at SoSH are obviously reading this site because they’re quoting us.

    so all we have to do is plant a seed of doubt and let the redo sox nation run with it. i’ll start.

    The Braves organization has clearly soured on Marte because of his inability to get along with teammates. Now is the time to move him before word gets out.

  109. new idea:

    as jenny noted, the red sox players, front office, even the gm have been known to read SoSH and make comments. And the guys at SoSH are obviously reading this site because they’re quoting us.

    so all we have to do is plant a seed of doubt and let the red sox nation run with it. i’ll start.

    The Braves organization has clearly soured on Marte because of his inability to get along with teammates. Now is the time to move him before word gets out.

  110. Julio Franco has been one of the best bargains in baseball the past few years. I don’t see why the Braves passed on him if Marte isn’t going to be around. I still have a teeny-tiny bit of hope that the Red Sox might end up with LaRoche, because of this move. And maybe I’m finally going to get that pony for Christmas this year.

    I can’t believe they offered Jordan arbitration. Please, let’s stop this Jordan crap.

  111. Julio was a abrgain, but he won’t be if we have to pay him 2 mil. Plus I am worried about his performance. Looks like age caught up iwth him those last 2 months. He said his elbow was barely letting hit.
    Sure we won’t LaRoche full time at 1B. yea..thats the only ray of hope we ahve, though all sites are saying the Marte close is just the ink away from being done.

  112. Boy, the AJC doesnt update its site often, does it? Its still says:

    BREAKING NEWS: Estrada traded for two pitchers

  113. I just saw this on Primer from a Chicago paper:

    There is some thought that the Atlanta Braves might be willing to consider Patterson.

  114. I’d take Corey if the price isn’t too high. The talent is definitely there, and he may just need a change of scenery.

  115. I hope that decision not to keep Franco was made not only to save money (or because he is slowing down), but to give Scott Thorman a chance. After all, LaRoche may not deliver in the end.

    Patterson is certainly worth a look…

  116. Yeah, I had been wondering about Patterson since the Cubs got Pierre — would he play a corner spot in ATL? What would he be worth, if anything?

  117. Marte isn’t with the Red Sox yet, and when he is, you can bet we’re not going to give up LaRoche to get a .140 hitter back.

    Sorry, but Marte sucks and I hope we can dump him on somebody while there is still the false impression he may be something.

  118. Patterson could be a good pickup, the change of scenary is what he needs. Wasn’t he at lead-off hitter at one time?

  119. He was a bad leadoff hitter at one time. He doesn’t get on base enough because of low walk / high strikeout numbers. But he is fast.

    Hey, he’s everything Bobby wants in a leadoff man!

  120. Renteria is about as good as Furcal, and if the Braves get him for $8M when Furcal is getting $13M, I think itís a good deal. Bobby Cox has a good (not perfect) record of getting the best possible performance out of players. At his best, Renteria was a borderline MVP candidate, and hit as well as Marcus Giles. So I’m cautiously optimistic about getting him. I wish we didn’t have to give up Marte, but I’d rather have Chipper. From Chipper’s comments, it seems that he didn’t think the move to LF worked out that well, and isn’t willing to move again. I don’t know why the won’t try Marte at 1B, but for something like that, I’ve got to defer to Cox and JS. Could we get more for Marte? By now, everyone knows he is available so if any team thinks they can beat the Red Sox’s deal, they can give it a try. But maybe we are overvaluing Marte if Tampa won’t trade Lugo for him, and the Sox won’t give Renteria (whom it seems they really don’t like) and a couple of million.

  121. The Braves didn’t have to offer arb to Farnsworth or Furcal since they were signed before the arb deadline. Braves still get the picks. At least one good thing has come out of this offseason.

  122. Ugh, the suspense is killing me. If edgar renteria was a free agent this year, what would he get? 3/18? And we’re going to give up lots of talent for him? Someone shoot me now.

  123. Why the heck can’t LaRoache go to Boston instead of Marte? Send LaRoache and Lerew for Renteria with boston picking up some of his contract.

  124. I’m not ready to ream JS just yet. He isn’t a fool, Marte hasn’t done anything in the majors yet, so it’s a bit presumptious to assume that we are trading a future star just because his minor league stats are great. Presumably, JS knows something about talent. Having said that, I don’t like giving up someone who COULD be a Cabrera-type for a shortstop that may be on the downside of his career just so we could potentially extend the division streak.

    Another thing about this–as good as the Atlanta-bred prospects are, none of them (except possibly Francoeur) projects to be as good as Marte. I assume the Braves think that having some white Atlanta guys in the lineup would have a positive effect on attendence. I’m not saying the Braves are racist–they obviously have Latin players on the team and are obviously willing to trade for them. But given the number of great Latin players in the big leagues and the experiences of Pujols and Cabrea, you would think that trading Marte for a shortstop possibly on the downside of his career would give them pause. If, as Bobby says, Marte could play in the big leagues now, why not find him a position? If he hits like everyone assumes he will (a big assumption of course), you could accept a little reduction in defense. Especially since, I think, they really need more offense.

  125. How about kelly johnson for Orlando Hudson and have him play SS? He’s got to be worth more than Estrada, right?

  126. I think Pete from Boston gives us some great perspective. Renteria is a pro’s pro and BC (and JS) eats that stuff up.

    I keep reminding people that Betemit has not been a full-time SS since 2001. That’s a long time and big-league managers just don’t throw guys out into a position, especially SS.

    A lot of this stuff doesn’t show up in stats, but about a month into the season, we may see 10-15 mental errors from Betemit that could cause problems. Teammates don’t like mental errors. Managers especially hate mental errors. I think this is the disconnect between fans and the guys in the dugout.

    I’m not saying Wilson is a blockhead. I am saying that Renteria is someone who has shown through experience that he will make solid on-field decisions.

    The other thing I think people are tending to forget is that our margin of error for winning the division is extremely slim. It was different when we were a megabucks team in the late-90s, with a great pitching staff that could have had the denizens of the primate cage at the zoo out in the field and still win the division comfortably.

    We ain’t in Kansas anymore Toto.

    Marte may become a solid professional hitter. Projections show that as a strong possibility. Renteria may be declining and getting ready to fall off the table. I don’t think that’s a strong possibility, but it is a possibility. Such is the risk of running a baseball team.

    I am not gaga over the deal. It would have been nice to see someone other than Marte moved. But I am comfortable with the deal.

  127. We can still sign Julio to a minor league deal, in fact that is what we ususally do. The longer we go with out this deal going down, the more likely it is that it won’t happen.

    I think Marte is the chip that brings cash back to help pay for “Rentanerror.”

    Let’s just give WB the job and sign Pookey to back him up. The “Poke Monster” (as we called him when he played AA in Chattanooga) is a slick fielding SS.

  128. BJs are awash with low power outfielders, and anyway they nixxed the O-Dog proposal. Afterall, they want to contend this year, and O-Dog is their best bet at 2B. Wonder why none of these teams made a run at Loretta. The Red Sox got a good deal there.
    I am waiting for the coin to drop on the Marte deal too. Can’t concerntrate at work!
    Did the Soriano trade make sense to anyone else? It seemed like Bowden wanted to make sure he wrecked the franchise on his way out.

  129. Soriano is going to play second or not play at all (that is his attitude) Don’t they already have like 5 second basemen? Vidro has been an all-star, what is he going to do?

  130. If edgar renteria was a free agent this year, what would he get? 3/18?

    Actually, his numbers are nearly identical to Furcal’s I suspect he’d get a deal similar to what he has now. In fact, if JS signed Renteria for 3/$30 I wouldn’t necessarily consider it a bad deal. It’s the parting with Marte, the salary, and the fact that Betemit is a cheap option that bother me about this deal. Most of all it’s losing Marte. I took a look at his stats this morning and almost began to weep just staring at his age and the parks in which he put up those numbers. He might be a bust, but I doubt it.

  131. I thought the Jays would trade O-Dog because they have Hill to play 2B. I think KJ is a step up from John Ford Griffin and Gabe Gross but I take your point. Still, Hudson’s career OPS+ is 93 (to 95 for Renteria) and he would probably perform at least as well at SS considering how bad Renteria was said to be there last year. I would imagine the asking price on him would be much less than Marte and another prospect, plus he is cheaper.

    Oh well. Not like I can do anything.

  132. I really don’t know the BJs IF situation. They have like 10 people for 6 spots ( I think they picked up John Macdonald again ).
    Betemit is going to have plus power and patience for a SS. The question is, how many of those extra runs on offence is he giving back with his defence..At thsi point, I really want to see no moves!
    And I have a nasty feeling we are going to start with Reitsma as our closer.

  133. Chicago Trib- “Nomar Garciaparra might be getting legitimate interest from more teams than any free agent on the board, with the Braves the latest.”

    Only if we get him for $1-2 million on an insintive based deal. That way we the the WB will be playing short sometime around May 5th-Sept.19th. Nomar comes back from his hurt (Heel, Ankle, Hammy, Wrist, Finger, Toe, Just pick one or two) Plus, we get to see Mia Hamm! The WB will show in that time he is the man, we wil bring up Tony Pena to back him up (and play a little D in the 9th) Or maybe Nomar will play left for us and we can see Ryno play more too!

  134. Godot, you are right, who are we going to get to close. I am going to look around and see who is out there we can trade to get (I am at work and am not being productive because of this.)

  135. I took a look at his stats this morning and almost began to weep just staring at his age and the parks in which he put up those numbers.

    I was doing the same ( except the weeping part :) )
    I was checking it with the park factors posted on Primer. Makes his last year pretty impressive given that Richmond seems to be a tougher park than Myrtle Beach. And MB seems to play a bit like a hitter’s park, but suppressing homers. Not what I had heard..

  136. The point is not really what Renteria is worth on the open market this season. The point is that he will cost Atlanta (At the very least) Andy Marte, Wilson Betemit (As he will lose his chance to be a starter in Atlanta) and a large portion of our payroll, which could haunt us next season, if not this season. The rumor now is that we’ll lose another prospect, as well. This is a bad, bad deal.

  137. And WHY is the Soriano deal one of the headlines on the Yahoo homepage? How is that such a big deal? It’s terrible baseball, but in the grand scheme of things (read: all the crap in the world right now), it means nothing.

  138. Bill Shanks

    “Atlanta Bravesí Manager Bobby Cox hated losing Rafael Furcal so much he convinced General Manager John Schuerholz to go get him another veteran shortstop.

    And Thursday morning, Schuerholz granted Coxís wish.

    BravesCenter.com has learned that the Braves have acquired four-time All-Star shortstop Edgar Renteria from the Boston Red Sox in exchange for third base prospect Andy Marte. Boston will also pay part of Renteriaís salary for the remainder of the four years (including an option year) left on the contract he signed with the Red Sox last winter. Details of what the Red Sox are paying will be announced later.

    Renteria struggled in his only year in Boston, hitting only .276 with 8 home runs, 70 RBI, and 30 errors in the field. The 30-year-old right-handed hitter never fit in with the wild atmosphere in Boston, after spending his first nine seasons in the tame media markets of Florida and St. Louis.

    A two-time winner of the Silver Slugger Award, signifying the best hitter at his position, Renteria also won two Gold Glove Awards in 2002 and 2003. Renteriaís best season was in 2003, when he hit .330 with 13 home runs, 100 RBI, 34 stolen bases, and a .394 on base percentage.

    Marte has been a top prospect for many years, bursting onto the scene in 2002 with an exceptional season in Macon. He hit .281 with 21 home runs and 105 RBI. Then in Myrtle Beach the next season, Marte hit .285 with 16 home runs and 63 RBI in 463 at bats. Marte then shined in AA Greenville in 2004, hitting .296 with 23 home runs and 68 RBI. And then this past season, he spent much of the year in AAA Richmond, hitting .275 with 20 home runs and 74 runs batted in.

    The Braves promoted Marte to Atlanta on two different occasions. He hit only .140 with 4 RBI in 57 at bats. Some worried that Marte was overwhelmed in the big leagues, but his numbers were compared to the Bravesí other rookies, most of whom had remarkable debuts in the big leagues.

    After the loss of Rafael Furcal to the Dodgers via free agency, most believed that the Braves would look internally and give the job to Wilson Betemit. But Cox and several members of the Bravesí front office had questions about whether or not Betemit could handle the full-time job at shortstop. Some even believe, with Betemit growing taller the last few years, that he has outgrown the position and is better off at third base.

    Cox has always preferred his up-the-middle defense to be as solid as possible, and the Braves believe Renteria will stabilize the infield after losing Furcal. While Renteria did lead the league with 30 errors, the Braves are convinced that was due to his unhappiness in Boston. Renteria had made only 27 errors in his last two years with the Cardinals, and he won two Gold Gloves while playing in St. Louis.

    Marte was more expendable with the recent move by Chipper Jones to restructure his contract, which ensures Jones will be the Bravesí third baseman for the next three seasons. Even though he had been tried in the outfield last winter, Marte was unable to convince the Braves he could play first base or the outfield, and after having Jones in left field for a couple of seasons, there was little doubt that he had returned to third base for good.

    The Braves believe they have two other third base prospects to replace Marte behind Jones on the organizational depth chart. Eric Campbell, who had a fantastic season in Danville in 2005, and Van Pope, who played in Myrtle Beach and Rome last season, are both solid prospects. Campbell has been compared to former Giantí third baseman Matt Williams, and he should be ready once Jonesí contract is up in three or four years.

    Now that the team has replaced Furcal, it can now continue to search for a closer. After the Wednesday trade of Johnny Estrada, the Braves are also in need of a veteran, backup catcher. With Julio Franco no longer an option after the team refused to offer him arbitration late Wednesday night, the Braves will now look for a backup at first. Nomar Garciaparra, whose agents met with the Braves Wednesday afternoon, is an option. Two other right-handed hitting first basemen to keep in mind are former Marlin Jeff Conine and former White Soxí star Frank Thomas.”

  139. Yeah, the SoSH guys just posted the article. Crap. It’s times like this when I’m glad I don’t have a cordless mouse, because it would be broken against a wall. This quote bothered me:

    Atlanta Bravesí Manager Bobby Cox hated losing Rafael Furcal so much he convinced General Manager John Schuerholz to go get him another veteran shortstop.

    There is a difference between a manager and a general manager. The GM is supposed to not let stuff like this happen just because the manager thinks it’s a good idea. If the manager were able to decide stuff like that, he’d be the GM. I can understand it in certain cases, like, “I REALLY need a better lefty reliever” or something, but not like this.

    If true, what are we doing with Wilson Betemit?

  140. All right, new idea: trade LaRoche for bullpen help and put Betemit at 1B. Switch-hitter with a good bat is a bad thing to lose, and don’t give me the right-handed first baseman crap, I’m not in the mood. Can we be creative here or something? Please?

  141. I bet Renteria reverts back to his old form for the Braves. Marte might go on to fulfill his potential, but Renteria will solidify that infield.

  142. Here are some key points

    * We are looking at Nomar to play first.

    * We have two guys in the minors that play third, who look good.

    * We may flip WB for a closer, but we loose someone to fill in for Chipper at third when he gets hurt. But if we get Nomar, that may not be a problem, but he will be hurt too!

  143. The Red Sox better pays more than $4M for Renteria. I don’t have a problem trading Marte, but I have a real problem only getting Renteria in return.

  144. If we trade Betemit, this greatly increases the likelihood that JS Jr. will somehow find his way onto the team. I don’t like that idea one bit. I know that sounds ridiculous, but no less ridiculous than his being promoted to AAA last year.

  145. At least we won’t have to watch Marte play for an NL team. I’m trying to put a positive spin on this, but it really does suck to lose the reigning BP #1 prospect in ALL OF BASEBALL. Good thing Boston included Youkilis, too, right? Right?

  146. If the Red Sox were paying more than $4m a year, the deal wouldn’t have gone through. John Henry is allergic to paying a guy to play for another team. Apparently we demanded half payment and they (rightly) balked, so we compromised. No, you can bet the financial deal isn’t very good, either. I heard $0m next year, $1m in 2007 and 2008, and $3m buyout in 2009.

  147. Andy and Anna department… From my referral logs:

    Last 20 Searchengine Queries Unique Visitors
    08 Dec, Thu, 09:07:11 Google: andy marte braves
    08 Dec, Thu, 09:08:09 Google: andy marte
    08 Dec, Thu, 09:08:38 Google: anna benson
    08 Dec, Thu, 09:08:43 Yahoo: anna benson photos
    08 Dec, Thu, 09:10:00 Google: andre marte braves
    08 Dec, Thu, 09:14:29 Google: andy marte
    08 Dec, Thu, 09:15:00 Yahoo: Andy Marte
    08 Dec, Thu, 09:15:53 Google: braves rumors
    08 Dec, Thu, 09:17:26 Google: braves blog
    08 Dec, Thu, 09:18:31 Google: macdougal traded braves
    08 Dec, Thu, 09:18:58 Google: anna benson
    08 Dec, Thu, 09:19:42 Google: “anna benson” “kris benson”
    08 Dec, Thu, 09:20:11 Google: bravesjournal
    08 Dec, Thu, 09:20:29 Google: Andy marte
    08 Dec, Thu, 09:20:47 Google: Andy Marte Braves
    08 Dec, Thu, 09:21:01 Google: Andy Marte
    08 Dec, Thu, 09:24:03 Yahoo: anna benson fhm
    08 Dec, Thu, 09:25:22 Google: anna benson howard stern
    08 Dec, Thu, 09:25:39 Google: Andy Marte
    08 Dec, Thu, 09:25:41 Google: Andy Marte

  148. If what Shanks reported is correct, I hate Bobby even more than before.

    Don’t get me wrong though, he is still the best regular season manager in baseball.

  149. Marte will be traded, probably to a team like the Mets, Marlins, Nats, or Phillies. These guys trade prospects for bull pens.

  150. So are you guys saying that Marte for rentanerror is a done deal?! (please say no please say no please say no!!!) Somebody mentioned Marte for Nathan. That might damn near put us in the WS. Any news on that?

    Damn Bobby and his stuborn, ignorant stupid infatuation with the goddang vets! WTF, Boby??!! You’re supposed to be the best manager ever, but you’re afraid to go out there with WB at SS???!!! Screw that, old man!

  151. Somebody on here was complaining about Mike MacDougal yesterday, that’s probably why you got the hit. I think it was the momentary Angel Berroa fuss and we were mentioning the Royals. Looks like that’s dead.

    How did you get a hit for Anna Benson and Howard Stern????

  152. Once this is offical I wonder how long it will take to deal Betemit? The talks w/Nomar have to be about money. Sure Nomar wants to prove himself and stay healthy, but taking a $6-8 mill. gamble for a backup player isn’t worth it. Nomar will have to come down on the price if he wants to join the Braves.

  153. I don’t think Betemit will be traded. While it was clear for quite some time that the organization did not trust him to be the everyday SS, he has signficant value as a cheap backup for both SS and 3B, and he could probably handle 2B as well. I don’t think he will be shifted to another position either.

  154. Oh, I didn’t realize Renteria’s deal was uneven. He’s only owed $8 million next year, then $12m and $12m in the last two years. I assumed it was $10m even for all 4 years. So the subsidization (is that a word?) schedule makes more sense. Although it made marginal sense in the first place.

  155. We have to assume Betemit is now next out the door, as the team obviously has no faith in him as a starter. The only pressing need now is a closer, unless the team feels that has been addresses with Villareal or Boyer, etc.

    So, where does Wilson go, and can he take La Roche with him?

  156. Um, let’s stop the Bobby bashing based on this tidbit. Remember who the author of the article is, and where his loyalties lie in the front office. It’s not the coaching staff in Atlanta that he’s fond of.

  157. We can’t trade LaRoche yet, we have no one to play first, unless we move Chipper there and put WB up at third, which makes the Marte deal worse.

  158. Carroll, I mentioned the Nathan for Marte deal, and with the Twinkies needing a 3B and us needing a closer I wasn’t sure if JS had even thought about it. I wouldn’t mind that trade so much.

  159. I wonder if we could let the rest of the offseason, then the regular season play out, before we claim doom and gloom.

  160. I also think we are getting ready to make a huge deal. Here are our needs:

    *Back-up catcher (has to be a Vet for Bobby)
    *1st base (Nomar or back-up righty for Adam)
    *Maybe a starter
    *More bull pen help

    I guess we are going with Giles as our lead off guy.

  161. Here is what our boy Ken Rosenthal says about Nomar:
    “The Braves are scheduled to meet Wednesday with the representatives for Nomar Garciaparra, who is drawing significant interest from nearly a dozen clubs, including the Yankees, Orioles, Blue Jays, Padres, Dodgers and Indians. Garciaparra could play left field for the Braves and serve as a backup at shortstop and third base”

  162. To go along with what Justin said….I really like Marte a lot, but wasn’t it just last year when everyone was so high on Dallas McPherson from Anaheim??? What happened to him?? Not saying Marte will follow Dallas, but still, Marte is a PROSPECT and he could fail. Not that likely, but i’m trying to make myself feel better…ha

  163. Does anyone here think if Marte and Francoeur both get 250 big league at bats next season that Francoeur will have a higher *OPS+? I sure don’t.

    Too bad Andy isn’t white, blonde and handsome.

  164. I think this has been posted cpl of times by JC / Kyle S, but does noone really realise what kind of prospect Marte was? Dallas McPherson was half the prospect Marte is…Just look his #s up, his age, and the parks he put it up in, and the league average for those leagues.
    I admit I am kind of biased. First time I saw Marte was in St last year. he homered in his first AB. I had only heard about him till then..

  165. McPherson was 24 last season (Marte just turned 22) and he struck out a lot more. Most people who knew what they were talking about (i.e. BPro) liked him less than Marte.

    Nomar as a LF probably isn’t a terrible idea, to tell you the truth, especially since he could play all the infield positions.

  166. Smitty, I agree that you’re probably right about Andy’s race not mattering, I was just joking. I feel frustrated and there isn’t really an outlet for it =/

  167. I would rather us not win the division next year than trade Marte. As I see it, this move is made with Chipper and Smoltz in mind, rather than the longterm health of the franchise.


  168. An upper level shortstop for a prospect that wouldn’t be able to play for a few years without learning a new position we have no idea how he would handle? I say its a good trade.

  169. The moment Chipper re-work his contract, we should have known it will not be Betemit at short.

    This trade also tell us neither JS nor Bobby was very excited about using so many rookies last season.

  170. It’s the damn obsession with continuing the streak. Likely that JS and BC won’t be around when Marte is a star anyway, so why not shoot the works now? I hate to look at it that way, but trading the best prospect in the system for a good, but not great shortstop (at best) isn’t exactly looking at the future.

  171. “This trade also tell us neither JS nor Bobby was very excited about using so many rookies last season.”

    That brings up a good point. Maybe we were a little spoiled last season in excelling with so many rookies. I would have hated to gotten to the middle of the season with Betemit butchering the SS position and everyone asking why we didn’t go out and get a vet for the position when we lost Furcal. You never want to trade a prospect like Marte, but I have a feeling that if he was truly a can’t miss prospect(as seen by the organization, not the fans) that he never would have been traded. The Braves might be a penny-pinching club, but they’re not stupid.

  172. Mac – you can leave the title of this thread up for the new Marte thread. Of course the emotion behind this thread and the new one will be a complete 180.

  173. What did everyone expect to do with Marte? Keep him in AAA till 2010? He was the product of a great farm system and unfortunately he was an odd man out.

  174. I would rather have traded Marte for Lidge or Dunn or someone else of that caliber. I don’t think this is a great deal, but I don’t hate it like most everyone else seems too. I think Renteria will have a great year working for Cox.

  175. Dang, can someone have a little respect for JS? We got prospects out the wazoo and Marte was blocked. At best he was the next Ryan Howard and wouldn’t contribute for another two years. We got a more than solid replacement for Furcal at SS and more importantly in my opinion. Renteria has won a World Series and knows how to come through in the clutch. Exactly what the Braves need. I love Marte but the only way he was going to help us was by trading him.

  176. Renteria comes through in the clutch with GIDP.
    Watch him make a historic run for Vinny Castilla’s record..

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