Bullpen arms

Estrada traded for 2 pitchers | ajc.com

Oscar Villareal had a big year in 2003 as a 21-year-old setup man but hasn’t pitched well the last couple of years. He’s intriguing but may have had some injury problems.

Lance Cormier went to Alabama so I am reluctant to say anything bad about him. You may judge by what I omit. His strikeout rate is pretty good, and he pitched better on the road than at home and gives Hudson someone to pick on.

182 thoughts on “Bullpen arms”

  1. As I said on BTF, you couldn’t expect much more for the shell erstad left.

    I like that the braves are at least putting in a little effort to reinvigorate their bullpen, and not just focus on shortstop.

  2. I posted this Simpsons moment on Primer. I think it’s appropriate for how I feel about this acquisition.

    Homer: Two pizza’s for the price of one at Doughies!!!
    Lisa: Doughies have terrible pizza!
    Homer: Yeah but there’s TWO!!!

  3. The D-Rays still want more than Marte for Lugo. Peter Gammons said they should be drug tested. ha hahaha!

  4. Mac, (and for all you Moneyball fans) I read a book review in the New Republic yesterday by Michael Lewis, in which he reviewed two books about Alabama football: The Last Coach by Allen Barra (about Bear Bryant, obviously) and Rammer Jammer Yellow Hammer by Warren St. John.

    He really liked both books, especially the Bryant biography. I think I’m going to pick it up from the library today as a way of procrastinating from my two term papers.

  5. Incidentally, I agree with Stu: I mainly like this deal, because I like any deal which does not involve the words “Andy Marte.”

    Call me easy-to-please.

  6. If this trade means that the Braves are counting on McCann with Pena as a backup, then it shows a lot of faith in youth — faith I hope they share for Betemit.

    And I have to say that Pena looks like a fine backup to me. Estrada and McCann would have made for an awkward platoon if McCann gets most of the time, a bad one if Estrada gets most of the time. Given that, I’m glad they got something (possibly good) for him.

  7. Villarreal is at least interesting. It appears that those 86 appearances as a 21-year-old rookie in 2003 took a toll on him, as he only pitched about 30 innings in each of the last two years. Looks like he missed all of 2001 as well. Still very young, though, and the comps are pretty good, as Smitty said.

    Cormier appears to have been included because Cox misses Gryboski — mediocre K rates, low HR % in the minors (2 HR in 83 PCL innings is fairly outstanding, then he gave up 13 in only 45 IP with the ’04 D’Backs).

    Eh, you know, seems okay to me — Villarreal at least has “upside”. See ya, Johnny. Be good.

  8. Note that I totally called this trade. When the three-way Estrada-Arizona pitching-Lugo trade was mentioned, I said, “Actually, now that I think about it, it doesn’t make that much sense. Why wouldn’t the Braves just trade Estrada for the prospects straight? You can never have too many pitching prospects, and I have yet to be convinced Lugo would be a significantly better option than Betemit next year.”

    And here it is. Ignore the stuff I mentioned that didn’t happen. The 0.01% that did is all that matters. I’m like Bill F-Bombing Shanks with my insider skillz.

  9. It seems we all went ape crap when JS traded Millwood for Estrada, lets be patient. I dont mind the deal, except it seems we are fairly deep in pitcinh

  10. Sounds like the Padres just traded Mark Loretta to Boston for Doug Mirabelli. Now that Castillo and Loretta are in the AL, maybe Marcus can get into the All-Star Game again! Behind Chase Utley, that is…

  11. Leo’s in Baltimore, folks. Get over it. Obviously Roger McDowell won the support of Cox and Schuerholz, so let’s give him a chance to work “magic” too.

  12. The Braves have a competitive edge in subjective player evaluation, as opposed to objective analysis at which they are more or less average. When I see them trading for young guys with iffy stats, it makes me think their scouts and coaches see something there they like. Then again, Dan Kolb happened, so we’ll have to see.

  13. I think we should send KJ to the Giants for Scott Eyre. They need a 4th outfielder and Eyre was great last year.

  14. woops, to continue:

    As for the Renteria deal, the more I think about it, the more I am convinced that JS wont do it. Not because he doesnt want to trade Marte, its that this isnt his kind of deal. If it were to evolve into a Marte/Prospects for Baez/Lugo, or some variation of, I can see it.

  15. The O’s are about as likely to trade Tejada as the world is to come to and end.

    Oh the world has ended.

    Oh we got Tejada.

    Oh but the world has ended. It is no good. Take him back O’s.

  16. I think Dan Kolb was messed up because of Leo. He tried to get him to strike out more people and I think it caused Danny to over throw, thus walking people early and then lossing his confidence.

  17. when middle relievers are costing $3 to $4 million on the open market, getting two youngish, pre-arbitration relievers is the sort of useful-if-unexciting move that ought to help the team both this season and down the road.

  18. C’mon Smitty, how could you forget? Thats been the centerpiece of the Cubs offseason (so far)

    (note heavy sarcasim, thank you)

  19. Since a poster brought this up, I started thinking about it..

    JS’ recent trading record

    a) Drew/Marrero for Wainwright/King/Marquis
    This started off looking real bad, but this is the ultimate win-win trade. Atlanta got rid a headcase, a fungible middle reliever and a stud prospect ( who subsequently struggled ), and got 1 year of MVP quality play from Drew and an exceptional year from Marrero. The deal would be even better if they got arb picks for Drew, but they managed to turn Marrero into vasquez, a live relief pitcher in the minors now

    b) Tim Hudson for Thomas/Meyer/Cruz
    A big win, though Cruz and Meyer have a chance to bounce back, but still a win for JS

    c) Nick Green for Jorge Sosa : another win for JS. When do we stop attributing trades like these to luck, and figure maybe the Braves have a really in-depth player evaluation system. maybe..

    d) Farnsworth for Colon/Miner : Tigers come out ahead. Would eb even if we had managed to re-sign farnsworth or even if he had managed to hold a 5 run lead. sigh..

    So really of late, JS has had only one so-so trade. Lets see how the Estrada trade develops.

  20. I actually like this trade. Cormier is better than you think. He had average-ish DIPS numbers last year, and that’s in an extreme hitter’s park. His big problem is that he walks people. A lot. That’s exactly the kind of thing that Leo used to fix. If the Braves pitching program survives Leo’s departure, he could be really good.

    Villareal is mostly just prospect still, but he has good strikeout numbers. Getting out of a homerun heaven will help a lot. Like Cormier, he has control issues, though.

    Cormier will be a solid addition, and Villareal has a bucket of potential. Both are pretty young (24 and 25). I think it’s a good swap. Pena’s a decent bat and can backup McCann. These guys each have the chance of blossoming into something really good.

  21. Oh I forgot the Dan Kolb trade.
    wow, I have completely erased the Kolb era from my memory banks. Score one against JS

  22. You are forgetting Capellan/Miner for Kolb. That’s terrible. But I agree, overall, he has shown that he should be trusted.

  23. Gotta say, I’m O.K. with the trade too. We got a couple of guys to compete for bullpen spots for a catcher who didn’t seem to be in the Braves plans anymore(this also means we’re not trading McCann–unless we get a pretty good catcher in return).

    P.S. Another Alex R., I bought the “Rammer Jammer Yellow Hammer” book for my father(big Bama fan) and he loved it.

  24. The Barra bio is very good. There are a few factual errors I caught (not about Bryant, about outside events) but it gives a good idea not only about Bryant’s life but about what he meant in Alabama.

  25. I’m a Tennessee Vol fan, but I read Rammer Jammer Yellow Hammer and thought it was great. Any college football fan should be able to enjoy it (it helped that UT beat ‘bama that year).

    On the other hand, after reading it I have decided that I can never cheer for Alabama football, even if Alabama winning would help Tennessee.

    It’s definitely worth picking up.

  26. Didn’t he pitch for Richmond to end the season?
    I would be surprised if he was released. He looked really good pitching, and had a very good k rate.

  27. I don’t know how fast you are CJ, but I ber you could out run Kolb, but I think you should think back to a few blown saves and just hit him in the face, I bet he goes down hard. Remember his trip to Miami this past season? good times ha ha ha ha

  28. Jorge Vasquez like others was inline to be a “future” closer for Atlanta.

    When the winter meetings are over does anyone think we will end up with a “speedy” leadoff OF? It may have been Rosenthal that said we are heavily interested in Coco Crisp and are “rebuffing” a deal for him.

  29. Speaking of the Kolbster, anyone know his status? Released, designated, playing next season in Atlanta?

  30. Vasquez was DFA’d in September, but I can’t figure out if he’s signed with anyone or not.

    Kolb is still on the 40 man roster, but I would imagine he’ll be nontendered.

  31. Smitty, I hadn’t heard that, but in all honesty, after the Vandy game I’ve been a bit more focused on the Braves, UT basketball, and the Lady Vols (whom I’m going to watch tonight vs GWU). I’ve taken a brief sabbatical from college football for my own health and sanity as well as that of those around me. Clearly though I need to back on top of things. Thanks.

  32. Remember his trip to Miami this past season?

    The FAA just shot a passenger in the Miami airport. Something about a bomb threat. Don’t know why I felt like posting that, but there you have it. Reason number 2428 why I’d rather drive back to school at the end of break, with the other 2427 reasons being all the nice sharp, heavy tools passengers are now allowed to put in their carry-on bags.

  33. I’d still rather fly. What if you were on a plane where a guy pulled out a plastic butter knife and you had to take him down? You would be a hero on NYC Fire Fighter level.

  34. “Reason number 2428 why I’d rather drive back to school at the end of break, with the other 2427 reasons being all the nice sharp, heavy tools passengers are now allowed to put in their carry-on bags. ”

    You;re driving from MN to MD? Damn! You know even with nailclippers being allowed driving is much more dangerous right?

  35. “I dOnT GeT hBo oN mY raBBiT EaRs….waNNa cOme OvEr aND plAy pONg?”

    I think beer pong with Dan Kolb would be loads of fun, hope fully his aim in that is as bad as his control, though i shudder to think how much that big boy can drink. Also I’d rather lose to him than blank him and see that mess of a man streak

  36. I think Schuerholz is very skillful at making other teams think he is interested in players without having any actual desire to trade for them, just so he can pull stuff out of nowhere–like Hudson. Or Fred McGriff. He’s a master of misdirection. He doesn’t make many blockbuster deals, but he drives rumor mills absolutely CRAZY.

    By the way, I just picked up the Barra book about Bear Bryant, and it’s WAY better than writing term papers. I wish I were a college football fan.

    Also, I feel I should come to Jenny’s defense, as a supporter of multiple baseball teams myself: I like the Mets. So shoot me.

  37. Seems that we’ve been rebuffed on both Crisp of the Indians, and Monroe of the Tigers. They wanted more than Betemit. If we are dangling Betemit, then who does JS suggest play SS?

  38. Yeah. You don’t “rebuff” a deal unless you -aren’t- interested in it. If you’re interested, you can get rebuffed.

  39. AAR-Here is your blind fold, take ten paces…

    Crash-I hear the Lugo deal or the Reneria deal has a 75% chance of going down. I think that KJ is being tossed around now.

  40. Lance Cormier

    Similar Pitchers through Age 24
    #1. Jake Westbrook (980)

    the rest of the list aint much and i dont know what sim scores are worth but thats fun to see atleast.

    I think Westbrook is an Athens, or atleast Oconee county, boy too. Somewhere in GA i know

  41. A.A.R.,

    Its ok to support other teams, but c’mon the METS? Holy Flerkin Shnit, you cant be fans of them both, not without having some serious mental issues

  42. I think we barely have a rivalry with the Mets. Its been 10 years now, and they never really been serious competition, just obnoxious.

  43. AAR . . . that is not cool. I come here a lot and your’s is a voice that I’ve enjoyed reading (yes, one can read a voice). But this admission is just an awful slap in the face. I rarely post (except about football apparently), but this was like being told you’re being cheated on. I’m not sure I can get over this. We might need some time apart.

  44. AAR, while personally I think it’s odd to root for multiple teams, the main problem with Jenny’s multiple allegienaces is that she talks about them CONSTANTLY on a Braves website. I don’t remember you ever doing that. Thank you.

  45. The Braves may choose to sign Todd Pratt to serve as McCann’s backup for the 2006 season.

    how much more money than estrada is he going to cost the braves?

  46. Tennessee, thanks.

    Stu, Smitty, Crash, Ermoore, my only defense is that my grandmother (may she rest in peace) liked the Mets, and so I took up passively rooting for them on her behalf. I will never, EVER root for the Mets to beat the Braves. Basically, I love the Braves with all my heart, and I don’t mind the Mets winning 75-80 games a year, as long as they’re not against the Braves.

    Oh, and I thought Bobby Valentine’s fake mustache and glasses after being ejected from a game was really funny.

  47. Todd Pratt–hey, he hit a pennant-game winning grand slam for the Mets against Terry Chouinard of the Diamondbacks in 1999!

    Gee, I’d really love to have him.

  48. Pratt would be a fantastic backup. He’s righthanded, so he can play against tough lefties as well as whatever pitcher would be his to handle–maybe Sosa, to help with the baserunners.

    And he would give great power out of the 7 or 8 spot in a lineup, and he’ll take a walk if it’s there. He made 750k last year, and that would be reasonable to get someone who is comfortable being a backup and would be a good insurance policy.

  49. I know I was just giving you a hard time. My grandpa and I use to go to Astors games all the time when he lived in Texas. We went to a few Rangers games too. (I saw Nolan Ryan beat the crap out of Robin Ventura) I pull for those teams to do well and cheer for players like Bagwell and Biggio.

  50. A.A.R.,

    My grandfather played for both the Brooklyn Dodgers and the Cleveland Indians….I can root for the Indians (different league, etc )…but the Eric Gregging Dodgers can kiss my Dan Kolb….I live in Florida, lived 10 minutes from the Marlins Spring Training in Melbourne, and I would never, under any circumstances root for another team in the Braves division, or league for that matter….

  51. “I wonder if we can trade Terrence Moore for Peter Gammons.”

    Rosenthals AOR (articles over replacement writer) is far superior. And their FReSOR (false rumors started over replacement writer) are equal.
    duh.

    who else can honestly claim to write a column an hour 24/7.

  52. AAR – A wiser man than me once said (something to the effect of) “it’s not enough for the Braves to win, the Mets (and Yankees and Phillies and Alabama) must fail.” Normally, I’d reserve my zealotry for college football, but it’s gonna be a quiet bowl season for me and I gotta do something with it . . .

  53. I think we barely have a rivalry with the Mets. Its been 10 years now, and they never really been serious competition, just obnoxious.

    That’s not entirely true. When I think of the mets/braves rivalry I remember the 99 playoff series where Andruw won on a walk. What a series. Then, the next season, we won the division over the mets by only 1.5 games. Those were the two years that really cemented the idea of a rivalry. Since then, however, it’s been fairly nonexistant.

  54. But if it’s not totally obvious, I’m just kiddi . . . no, wait. Everything I said is true, except that I’ll keep on digging your (and Jenny’s) contributions to the board, much like I tolerate the Alabama fans that are here (and really, it’s more like “appreciate,” except when they’re gushing over the dawgs or the tide). (*sigh* it’s been a long year . . .)

  55. Todd Pratt would be fine, IF, he doesnt cost more than Estrada would have. Seems stupid to sign him for more than what we were paying for a younger, switch hitter…..or is it just me?

  56. 1. I doubt that Pratt would get more than $1 million, and I had Estrada pencilled in at $1.4 million.

    2. Estrada is a switch-hitter only in theory, because he’s terrible from the right side. Pratt, as a righthander, would fit the Braves’ needs better as a backup. He hit .300/.404/.700 (just 40 AB) against lefties last season and .293/.412/.565 against them from 2002-04.

    3. Estrada was the starter and would likely not take kindly to being relegated to reserve duty. Hell, he already didn’t take kindly to it. Pratt has his International Union of Backup Catchers card already.

  57. They’re saying on “The Show” on MLB Home Plate on XM Radio (channel 175) that Schuerholz is coming on for an interview soon. I’ll post if he says anything of consequence(not likely).

  58. Schuerholz says on Xm Radio…

    1. Made Furcal our best offer. We thought he would stay, but never had the opportunity to negotiate.

    2. Glossed over Schuerholz’s beginnings as a GM….blah blah blah.

    That was basically it. They didn’t ask him a single question about current trades in the works. Maybe they knew he wouldn’t answer anyway.

  59. Crash, that’s awesome that your grandfather played for the Dodgers! The Brooklyn Dodgers are my super-secret fantasy favorite team of all time. Again, my grandmother grew up loving them–that’s why she switched to the Mets late in life, because they were an NL team in New York. Who was your grandfather, and when was he a Bum?

  60. With respect for JS’s trades, I still think that the Braves did reasonably well in the Farnsworth trade (especially if they get draft picks). Colon was awful (making him a real Tiger) and while Miner pitched well for Toledo, he is not even on Detroit’s 40 man roster.

    I am less comfortable with the trade for Todd Hollandsworth–Angelo Burrow was a throw away, but Todd Blackford still has some real upside.

    The Braves traded Alec Zumwalt (not Zach Miner) and Capellan for Kolb.

    Trading Estrada for middle relief prospects raises two questions: (1)did the Braves have to keep Kolb on their 40 man roster? In doing so, they may have lost Glenn Tucker who pitched very well in Arizona. Tucker might well have been a middle-relief candidate. I suppose this means that they think that Kolb can be rehabilitated;(2) What was so bad about Vasquez? Granted he was not impressive, but the Braves relegated him to oblivion pretty quickly. After all, he was hardly the worst pitcher out of our bullpen.

  61. it is rather insignificant but still..braves made it to #9 on espn’s ultimate standings.

    No. 9 – Atlanta Braves
    Last year’s rank: 16
    What’s better than 14 straight division titles? How about ending seven years of falling attendance? ”Fans noticed our commitment to them and have responded,” says club prez Terry McGuirk. With gate prices 21st in the league and deals like $1 ticket promos, fans pay a bit more than half as much as those at Wrigley and they’re still paying in October.

  62. Word on the Boston boards is that the Sox have traded Doug Mirabelli for Mark Loretta, and that the Rays/Sox/Braves deal where we deal prospects to Tampa, Lugo to Boston and Renteria to ATL is nearly done, that its between ATL and Boston over money. Sounds like the same deal Gammons was saying is “all but dead” earlier today, but this grist came up late this afternoon, so maybe got resurrected… hope not… Andruw/Renteria/LaRoche? 4-6-3.

  63. Yeah, I heard the main sticking point was that we wanted Boston to eat some of Renteria’s contract for us. Not sure they’re willing to do that; John Henry is pretty adamantly opposed to “paying someone to play for someone else.”

    And I hope it doesn’t happen. Losing Andy Marte and getting Edga Renteria makes my stomach turn.

    NMS, I actually already drove up to MN in August. 19 hours. And they say driving is more dangerous because there are more accidents, but I thought I read somewhere that the number of traffic accidents and plane accidents relative to the number of hours you spend on each mode of transport actually refute that. But I don’t feel like researching it.

  64. And of course I spelled “Edgar” wrong. If my posts are missing random letters, it’s not my fault. I have a bad ‘r’ key on my keyboard and I don’t know how to fix it.

  65. NMS, I actually already drove up to MN in August. 19 hours. And they say driving is more dangerous because there are more accidents, but I thought I read somewhere that the number of traffic accidents and plane accidents relative to the number of hours you spend on each mode of transport actually refute that. But I don’t feel like researching it.

    This is what Levitt claims in Freakonomics. Who knows if it’s true.

  66. According to WEEI in Boston (Red Sox official station), Tampa is no longer part of the deal because they kept demanding too much for Lugo (Chuck Lamar’s spirit lives on!). It is now apparently a Renteria for Marte straight swap with the major question being how much if any money the Red Sox have to pick up. There was some BS on MLB.com about McCann or Salty being part of the deal but it’s pretty old (as in before Estrada was traded) and that would be plain retarded to do.

  67. I liked Johnny E overall, but dumping him made sense — maybe one of these guys will benefit from putting on a Braves uni. Otherwise, I’m holding off judgement on hot-stove until midnight…

    For what it’s worth, I think Pratt hit the ’99 NLDS HR off Mantei.

    Re: The Mets. Living in NYC as a Braves fan, I should love the Mets — because they never let me down. As I told a gloating Met fan/co-worker today, “You lost to a bunch of rookies last year; how’s it going to feel losing to them again next year?”

    Bama People: Dunno who likes rock music out there, but there’s a great double-CD that came out a couple years ago by the Drive-By Truckers called “Southern Rock Opera.” It’s all about growing up in Alabama in the 1960s & 70s with plenty of connections to GC Wallace, PB Bryant & the music of that time. Growing up just on the other side of the Chattahoochee (in Columbus, Ga.), it really touched me.

    The group is originally from the Florence area, but they mostly live in Athens now. For anyone coming of age during that time, I guarantee that there’s something for you in that album.

  68. A.A.R. –

    My grandfather was Henry M. Easley, had a cup of coffee with the Dodgers in 1941, went to war, and came back and spent a few years in Indians minor leagues, short stint with Cleveland. I actually have both his Cleveland and Brooklyn uniforms in my attic…

  69. I swear, if we trade Marte for Renteria, I may go on a killing spree. My blood pressure is rising. I really don’t need this–my Federal Income Tax Law exam is tomorrow morning at 9, and I haven’t studied nearly enough. Argh.

  70. What’s so bad about Vazquez?

    Granted, he ate up AA, but the guy is 26 or 27. He got caught in the age sting after 9/11 and got three years closer to retirement age in one afternoon.

    Watching him pitch in his brief time with the Braves, he didn’t look like much. His fastball was low 90s and his breaking ball seems to “sit.”

    When he got sent back to Richmond to finish the season, he clocked in at about 10 in ERA. ERAs can be very misleading, but 10 is really high.

  71. I dunno, Is Rentaria at 10 million minus what the Sox pay, that much better than Betemit? He isn’t a lead off hitter. We pay more money, lose Marte… I hope he is that much better.

  72. Federal Income Tax Law? That is possibly the worst subject I could ever come up with to take a class on, besides perhaps mass torts. My sympathies, Stu.

  73. It’s actually really interesting stuff, much to my surprise.

    And no, Renteria is not that much better than Betemit. Which is why I’ll be disgusted if we give up Marte to acquire him.

  74. If listening to marte offers, it means that JS sees the window for championship chances closing (Andruw; Chipper; and Smoltz (the core)) getting too old. This may be the last gasp, in 2006, until the young guys reach their prime. i would trade a fade in 2006 to keep Marte, though.

  75. That’s what you get Stu, my next exam isn’t until Monday. :P

    Of course I’m taking Tax in the Spring, any idea if the books are the same? I can take ’em off your hands if so. Assuming you don’t demand an arm and a Marte.

  76. The biggest questions in my mind right now:

    Can Frank Thomas still play first?
    Will he play for the money we were allocating for Furcal?

    If Big Hurt can still be passable on defense, it would be incredible to have one of the best hitters in history on the Braves next season. I know he’s old, and he’s a serious injury risk, but he’s still really, really good at the plate.

    I can’t believe he’s just dangling in the breeze.

  77. Haha good luck with that, Stu. ;)

    In other news, my Austin Peay contacts have me a call back interview in Clarksville at the end of the month.

    Clarksville is to Nashville as Julio Lugo is to Rafeal Furcal. Close, cheaper, but not quite as nice.

  78. ububba – I’m from Columbus too.

    If we give up Marte in order to get the expensive, intensely mediocre Edgar Renteria, I am going to seriously question the Braves’ sanity.

    It’s too bad Tampa Bay is so damn stupid in their trade demands. I bet their players wish they could get traded too.

  79. If I recall this board correctly, Betemit is “not appreciably worse than Derek Jeter.” (I’m paraphrasing.) Edgar Renteria most definitely qualifies as appreciably worse than Derek Jeter–not to mention the fact that he’s a player who clearly has negative intangibles, such as being surrounded a black hole of suck.

    If we could get Renteria for free–if the Red Sox traded him for nothing and agreed to pick up his entire salary–I would STILL rather see Betemit at shortstop.

  80. Frank Thomas hasn’t played first base full-time since 1996. He’d be a nice ace in the hole pinch hitter, and maybe he’d give us a hometown discount, but he’s not a full-time player anymore. That’s partly diminished skills, and partly the fact that he has no ability whatsoever to stay healthy.

  81. Big Frank Thomas is from Columbus, too. My fantasy was always to have him & Hudson (Phenix City, born in Columbus) playing on the Braves. Not so sure if it’s one that I still entertain, given Frank’s unique ability to both break down & alienate his teammates. I root for him, but I fear that he’s bad news.

    Matt,

    Where in Cols? I grew up on the Southside & went to Pacelli.

  82. Yeah, I just didn’t know how bad his defense has become. If he really, truly can’t play 1B anymore (and I trust you, Kyle S), that’s sad.

    As a DH, he’s a marquee free agent. Some team’s going to be getting a steal.

  83. Stu, I feel your pain. However, I may have one up on you. I am studying for my Federal Estate and Gift Tax exam tomorrow, and if you think Income Tax is rough, wait ’till you get your hands on some estate and gift tax. Terrible.

  84. What is the deal with ya’ll being aginst Renteria?? All Star, Gold Glove, Silver Slugger. He’s had two bad years, both the years that he was traded and he still wasn’t all that bad last year. If JS is trading Marte he has a reason behind it. Maybe he thinks Campbell will be ready soon. Who knows. But I’m thinking I’ll trust JS until he proves us wrong. He and Bobby have gotten us 14 straight…we know its got to end sometime, but I still trust JS and Bobby.

  85. Well, he had reasons when he traded Jermaine Dye and Jose Capellan, too. That didn’t make those reasons good ones.

  86. Frank Thomas would have been great a fews years back, but he would be more like Andres Thomas these days. I wish there were a right handed basher available at first, that would help alot.

    I trust Betemit at short, of all of the internal options. As I have stated before, I would be willing to go outside the organization, and trade Marte, if it brought a closer and or leadoff hitter along in the deal (i.e. lugo/baez or crawford/baez)

  87. Andy, I completely agree with you. I’m behind JS 100%. But if he brings me Renteria on a platter, we’re gonna have words.

    The basic problem with Renteria is that his reputation has always exceeded his play. He’d be a nice player if it weren’t for the fact that he’s been heralded for far too long as one of the best shortstops in the majors. He’s not a Gold Glove-caliber fielder, and though he’s pretty good with the stick he’s nothing too special. Next to a $10 million dollar contract, that’s pretty sickening.

  88. What if we could get Renteria straight from the Sox for, say, KJ and one of the second-tier prospects? I think the main problem here is that it’s Marte being dealt. I don’t object to Marte being traded as such — I think the world of him but they don’t have anywhere for him to play — but for an overpaid guy the fans hate? Ugh.

  89. I doubt the Sox would pay much of Renteria’s salary for a package of just KJ and a second-tier prospect. And he’s WAY too expensive for us to want unless they pay for him.

  90. After seeing some of the awards, the phrase “Gold Glove-caliber fielder” no longer fills me with excitement. Renteria does have one of those, I believe. He also had 30 errors this year and has been on a steady decline since 2003. I really have no idea how old he is; the birthdate suggests 30 but I’ve heard he may actually be younger, having lied to get to play earlier. So he could bounce back, although his PECOTA card doesn’t suggest it. But his 2004 and 2005 numbers fill me with dread.

  91. I agree A.A.R., the Sox would probably pay zilch of his contract for KJ and B prospect, thats probably why they have demanded Marte.

    I think we could expect .280 10 70 from him, and average defense. However, now that I see those numbers in front of me, isnt that what we could expect for Betemit?

    If we trade Marte it should be for a closer (something we dont have internally) and/ or a leadoff hitter (something we dont currently have)

    What if Boston threw in Arrojo (sp?)…he seemed to be a fairly versatile guy

  92. Steve Phillips just noted on SportsCenter that he thought Renteria would be a great fit in Atlanta. Do we need any other reason not to acquire him?

  93. hmmmm…Marte for Folke….I’d do that too, but I dont think there is a way in hell that the Sox would

  94. How about Marte for Lidge? They have been known to deal closers. I think that would be pretty even. I don’t want Foulke until I know his back is okay.

  95. You’re not getting Lidge for Marte, or for any prospect besides maybe King Felix. Especially when your prospect plays Morgan Ensberg’s position.

  96. Anyone that wouldn’t dive head first for a Marte-Lidge deal would be certifiable. You don’t get all-world closers for a singular prospect.

  97. San Diego radio is saying Hoffman’s staying with the Padres, should start popping up elsewhere soon. With Todd Jones going back to Detroit for 2 years (likely a dumb move there), the Indians will probably offer arbitration to Wickman. Not that many closers left; I’m starting to fear the name “Braden Looper” popping up.

  98. Apparently the Astros aren’t offering Clemens arbitration. I doubt he’ll play for another team so it probably means he is retiring.
    He still needs money though, $18 mil a year is probably not enough to feed a family.

  99. 1) Ensberg is a terrible 3B, and they’ve already discussed moving him to 1B.

    2) Of course it wouldn’t be Marte for Lidge, straight up, Aram. But I wouldn’t include Marte in any Foulke deal, whereas I would for Lidge.

  100. Misinterpreted your earlier post in that case, Stu. I agree, Marte in a Lidge deal would be worth it. Marte for no one else but Foulke would be terrible.

  101. I guess I value Lidge a lot less highly than you guys do. He’s a nice player, don’t get me wrong, but he only pitches 70 innings a year. Also, his arm could explode a la Eric Gagne ca. 2005 and leave us with nothing.

    Let’s try this. Instead of “Andy Marte” imagine we control Scott Rolen at age 22. Would you trade Scott Rolen’s first six major league seasons for Brad Lidge?

  102. Andy Marte’s most comparable player for 2004 was Miguel Cabrera. MIGUEL CABRERA. Trade LaRoche and put Chipper at 1B. Why are we trying to trade this guy? It is a mistake. I have been on SoSH all day (lets you know how bored I am) and they are literally jumping for joy at the thought of getting this guy and think we are in post-Furcal “manic panic mode.” The solution is simple. Why are we trying to fix a problem we don’t have?

  103. We may have just dealt Kolb back to the Brewers (MLB Radio). Of course, we’re not getting Capellan back, looks like it may be Wes Obermueller.

  104. I think that it’s not so much that we’re trying to fix a problem we don’t have, as that Schuerholz wants other people to THINK we’re trying to fix a problem we don’t have.

    His deals always come in under the radar. Always. He wouldn’t pull the string on a deal that has gotten this much publicity–he’d use it as a smoke screen.

    Just gotta keep believing…

  105. Well, it’s not everyday you can acquire 3 different right-handed relievers who posted ERAs over 5 last season.

  106. I can’t believe Kolb still has value. What would the Brewers trade for him now? Then they will need to offer him arbitration for keeping him which keeps his salary at the $3M level. It doesn’t make any sense…

  107. So Mac, what can you tell us about Obermuller? Another reclamation project for the second spitter?

  108. If the red sox get Marte for Renteria they may erase the bad kharma from the Bagwell/Andersen deal. It’s not hard to see why SOSH would be jumping.

    I agree that it’s not a problem we have that needs to be fixed, just like I think that we don’t need a capital c closer. We just need some quality arms. Dotel strikes me as a good idea as well as Looper. But only if we can buy the 2004 versions…

  109. What is this garbage about Furcal being on XM Radio and saying, “The Braves had plenty of opportunities to re-sign me and they didn’t get it done.” What is his problem? From what I hear, it was the other way around, and I’m more likely to trust JS than a guy with two DUIs and major judgment problems. I was missing him, but he really came off as an asshat. It’s not like the team supported him through all his dumb mistakes and slumps and whatnot and brought him to the playoffs every year of his career or anything…don’t let the door hit you on the way out, Raffy.

    [/THREAD HIJACK]

  110. I meant “why” when I typed “what”.

    I like the Estrada deal myself. Villareal has real potential, and Cormier had a great first half. So, we get two great potential for a shell of the old Estrada. I think that’s pretty good.

    On the other hand, I can’t find anything good to say about Obermueller…I will wait and see if it is a done deal or not…

  111. I think both JS and Furcal are being played around by his agent, who ultimately has no interest in letting Furcal staying with the Braves at a discounted rate.

  112. Mac, where is Herr Hessman when we need him? Together with Herr Obermueller we would have half of Falco’s backup band.

  113. Obermueller has a pulse. That’s good enough for Atlanta in this trade, I think.

    It’s tempting to say that it’s like the Braves traded Capellan et al. for Obermueller, but that’s in the past and you can’t recoup sunk costs. JS got something, even if it’s just a space filler at Richmond.

  114. I will say that for a one-joke premise, the Dan Kolb Blog probably milked that joke better than any other one-joke premise in the history of comedy, including the entire Police Academy series.

  115. I will miss the Dan Kolb Bolg. I will not, however, miss the reason it became popular in the first place.

  116. The Kolb joke, unfortunately, was on us.

    Obermueller, Assenmacher, Shickelgrueber–doesn’t matter to me. I’ll take him.

  117. Somewhere, Doug Melvin’s at a cocktail party, and someone is mentioning Dan Kolb, and milk is spraying out of Doug Melvin’s nose.

Leave a Reply

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *