Braves Content and Community
Marte to the Phillies? Come on, you can do better than that.
Colon/Jurries to the Pirates for Mike Gonzalez.
Marte for Ryan Howard? I would that in a heartbeat and HONESTLY, it does make sense for both teams–don’t you think?
1. The deal reported was Marte for Wagner; I don’t believe in giving up top prospects for relievers who are about to be free agents.
2. Howard’s not nearly as good of a prospect as Marte.
1. Don’t trade for anything but a reliever.
2. Don’t trade top prospects for relievers!
That’s all I’m asking.
And isn’t Howard 26 or 27 years old?
Where do you play Laroche if you trade for Howard?
Bob’s suggestion, meanwhile, has merit… except that Gonzalez is on the DL with a knee injury.
Pena for Shiggy (and enough to cover his salary)
Who cares about LaRoche? He’s a mediocre fill in type until we can get a stud.
And Marte for Howard is a GREAT deal…why am I the only that thinks this? Howard is a stud and unlike Marte, he will also hit for a high average to go with the power.
I think I’d rather have Marte between the two. Something about Ryan Howard screams Calvin Pickering to me… but that’s not objective, and it’s probably not fair. Marte seems a safer bet to me, and they both fill essentially the same spot on the team. Actually, I figure Larry is bound for 1B no matter what. So Marte fills the greater need.
The only reason no one agrees with you is that you’re wrong.
Howard is 25. Last year, he hit .270/.362/.604 in AAA.
So far, so good. But Marte is 21, and last year hit .269/.364/.525 in AA, while battling injuries.
Howard’s a good prospect. He is a better hitter than Marte right now. But he’s not going to get a lot better, and he’s a first baseman. Marte plays a premium position and (despite what happened yesterday) well, and he’s just scratching the surface of his talent.
What has happened, Alex, is that you have already soured on Marte, like you do every prospect who comes up and doesn’t set the world on fire. Hence “We have to get rid of Johnson and Langerhans and bring in Preston Wilson”-gate.
As for hitting for average, Howard, like Marte, will probably be a .270-.290 range hitter.
Lerew and T. Pena Jr. for Eddie Guardado.
If you want me to ever post again on here, since we are friends, you don’t need to
a) speak for me and make assumptions that are not true
b) insult me.
I know because you know me you can say certain things but I am pissed.
With that said, who said ANYTHING about souring on Marte?????? I have not soured…i think he’s a stud. I just think Chipper will be around a few more years and with Bete,it at SS, I would love to have a LONG term answer at 1st like Howard.
And yes, I am happy to be along on this but as much as I like and respect Andy Marte (no way have I soured), I think Howard is that much better.
Mac–do not put me down like that. That was uneccessarily mean, especially considering I was pretty supportive of you in a personal matter last week. think twice.
Again, Howard’s already 25. He’s not a long-term answer — he’s a five-year player. And Chipper’s probably going to first base soon.
Let me just say something here to you & all the posters.
I apologized to Jenny because she was a sweetheart and right that I can be grumpy.
But, I do seem to take more then most people share of abuse on this site. I have my strong opinions but I really just want to have a healthy debate with people.
Mac, you really think you can say anything because we have known eachother so long. I think there needs to be a modicum of respect because a lot of people read this site and when you thoroughly insult me on here, it opens the door for others to do the same.
Again, I emphasize I am on here to have a healthy debate about my favorite team about the Braves–not to be insulted.
I also apologize again to everyone when I am rude or foul about something. I know I can be as well. To be fair.
What insult? I just said you were wrong. I’m sorry if you were offended, but I don’t see any sort of personal insult there.
Can anyone get last year’s mle’s for Marte and Howard? Enquiring minds, etc. Had baby goat tonight – don’t know what it is about little critters, but they sure are tasty. Seems like every other country is on the bandwagon but us.
Apology accdepted–that’s all I ask.
and I stand by my opinion that as much as I love Marte, he’s worth trading for Ryan Howard. It’s a win-win for both teams.
and when did 25 become old?
It’s not old, but it’s a sign that he’s as good as he’s going to get, and with his body type he’s not likely to age well.
Mmmmm, goat. Wonderful stuff. I’ve been thinking about getting one from the Paskistani guy who runs the store on the corner to BBQ later on this summer. He started out only wanting two then ended up buying 60 goats and 150 acres to keep them on.Americans don’t eat a whole lot of lamb anymore either and it has become one of my favorite meats. Even the cheap cuts have a great flavor when stewed.
Marte’s 21 and in the majors. When Howard was 21, he was in A-ball and had 6 homers in 169 at bats. Incidentally, Howard was also in A-ball at age 22 and at age 23. Howard has power, lots of it, but he’s nowhere near the prospect Marte is.
I agree with you that Howard is a very intriguing player, but there’s just something about Marte I like. We almost saw it Sunday except for that bastard Brady Clark. And like CReynolds said and I agree it’s only a matter of time before Chipper becomes a first baseman. The only reason that didn’t happen last year is because Laroche was having a better year than Derosa. I live about 10 miles outside of Philly and there’s a lot of articles and tv reports about Howard going to Oakland in a Zito deal.The Phillies fans (which is about my whole family and friends) want Howard playing at 1st everyday and Thome moved.Only Ed Wade and Manuel are keeping that from happening. Chances are Manuel will be gone soon. I love a good debate about my favorite team The Braves. Keep’em coming.
Nobody is going to trade for Thome’s contract.
I agree Mac, that’s the problem and that I feel should cost Wade his job knowing that Howard was on his way.
How about a Colon for Kyle Farnsworth in Detroit.
Farnsworth 1-1 1.95 ERA 37IP 46k 1HR
and isn’t he from the Atlanta area.
Howard is 25, but it’s squarely on the Phillies that he’s only now getting a shot, and that only because Thome got hurt. They saw fit to have him play 3 full seasons in A ball, beginning at age 21, then when he (finally) got to AA and hit .297/.386/.647 it took them over 100 games to realize that he might again be ready for a promotion.
Not that I’d trade Marte for him, though. I agree with Mac about his body-type — guys that big are rarely effective after age 31-32. Too bad for him, though — the Phillies are wasting his time.
Ryan Howard is a cute litte player. Nice pickup in a fantasy league. Here’s the thing though, he is roughly as good as Adam LaRoche. AS good, like equal. Andy Marte meanwhile is going to be a superstar 3B.
Put it this way. Andy Marte can(and hopefully will) be Eric Chavez. Ryan Howard will probably be Fred MdGriff(a comparison that John Sickels makes and that I find apt). If we trade Andy Marte for someone, it better be either Albert Pujols or Miguel Cabrera.
Is the post bug back?
You could always move Marte to first, probably have a better defensive player than Howard ever will be, and the “problem” is solved. Ryan Howard is a solid offensive talent. But why trade for him when you have Marte sitting in the wings?
“They saw fit to have him play 3 full seasons in A ball, beginning at age 21”
That’s not entirely accurate.
The Phillies drafted Howard in the 5th round in 2001, and when he signed they sent him to their affiliate in the short-season New York Penn league (where he did okay, but nothing all that impressive for a 21-year old first baseman playing in a short-season league).
In 2002 (Howard’s first full season in the minors), the Phillies sent him to their Low-A affiliate in the South Atlantic League. In 2003, the Phillies promoted Howard to their High-A affiliate in the Florida State League.
There was nothing exceptionally rapid about Howard’s rise through the minors, but there was nothing exceptionally slow either.
Howard had 1152 at bats from 2001-2003 (playing against mostly younger competition), and he struck out 351 times while commiting 32 errors as a first baseman. It’s not clear that the Phillies were negligent in not promoting him more rapidly.
I like the McGriff comparison, but only if you cut the career length in half. Crime Dog consistently committed 10 or more errors per season, but his teams seemed more than willing to endure his iron glove.
Joel — okay, his first season was a short-season league. I still maintain he should have been brought along faster, because in each of his first three full seasons (Lakewood, Clearwater, Reading) he was clearly the dominant offensive force on his team (in OPS, lead Lakewood by 64 points, lead Clearwater by 118 points, lead Reading by 84 points), and the Phillies didn’t appear to have significant 1B prospects blocking his advancement.
2 1/2 years in A-ball, 1 1/2 below high-A, is a bit excessive for a college player. Adam LaRoche was in AA after two years (a half year in rookie ball, 1 1/2 at high-A) and he wasn’t nearly the hitter that Howard was, and was a year younger to boot.
The rummor today is that we are in a contest to sign Stanton along with: St.Louis, Florida, Houston, New York (Mets) and the Cubs.
Marte, James, Pena and PTBNL (McCarthy) for Dunn, Kearns and Merker. There also needs to be a subsequent deal involving LaRoche.
Dunn plays first, for now. Kearns takes over in right, shifting Langerhans to the bench. Next year, Kelly Johnson returns to the infield (3B), Larry shifts across the diamond and Dunn goes to left. Francoeur goes back to AA to finish the year, and then gets a full year at AAA.
This is ridiculousl unlikely, of course. But it sounds like fun. I don’t see how Dunn can fit into the payroll next year (or even this year) without doing something drastic anyway.
I just don’t see why we would want Mike Stanton. I wouldn’t complain, but it’s just impossible for me to get excited about a LOOGY. He has been torched by right-handed hitters this year. He’s the mirror image of Steve Reed… which means he can successfuly face even fewer batters.
I don’t want him either…
Here is something a little off the wall. i say we try to get Corey Patterson, not for this year, but for the future. He could play out the season in AAA, come up when Jordan gets hurt again in September. This guys trade value is at rock bottom right now and we could get him cheap. And in classic Cub fashion, he would be come the next Hank Aaron! Just a thought.
Why would we ever return KJ to the infield? From all reports, he was a poor infielder, but he looks pretty good in left. Would he really be an upgrade over even an aging Chipper?
Why would we trade anyone to the Phillies? Both teams are trying to win now and are in the same division.
Here’s something to think about. Horacio just pulled off the game of his life the other day, The Braves are getting ready to get their starters back. If the Braves want to trade Ramirez this season, now is the time.
Who is going to play short next season? Is it going to be Pena or the WB? We should let WB have it and trade Pena for a solid pitcher.
I hadn’t heard anything about Johnson’s fielding at 3rd, so I have no idea. What little I heard about his issues at shortstop was more about footwork. He certainly looks like a good outfielder to me. I’m sure he’s better than Dunn, and if Larry can stay at third I’d be ok with that.
Mostly, though, I was thinking of a deal in which giving up Marte wouldn’t bother me.
If we trade Marte for a big time player (a closer) that team will have to take kolb as well. I don’t think we are going to be able to add a lot a salery and we would have to dump $$$ to get a closer.
The interesting thing about Stanton is that last year he was far better against righties than lefties (.576 OPS vs. righties, .796 vs. lefties). His splits going back to 2002 show the same trend (less pronounced, however). Historically, he’s more of a Mike Remlinger-type than a guy who just shuts down lefties. This year’s obviously an entirely different story, but I definitely believe he’s worth a flyer when Adam Bernero is still on the staff.
Now I’m a sweetheart? Thanks, Alex! And totally irrelevant question for you: where in Washington do you live? In the actual city? VA? MD?
Stanton’s peripherals aren’t that bad – the Yankee’s “Manos De Piedra” defense just didn’t help a lick
Is this the best defenseive Braves team of the title run?
Probably, with a caveat that they could put out a great defensive team in 1991 when all the glove men were on the field at the same time. But between Nixon’s suspension and the demi-platoons in the middle infield that wasn’t all that common.
And the 1991 team also had the dubious distinction of playing Lonnie Smith for around 100 games in left. He was truly one of the worst outfielders I ever saw.
Well, yeah. Gant wasn’t that good either; the outfield was pretty poor after Nixon was suspended. But before that, they could play an outfield that had Nixon in center and Mitchell in left, and that was pretty good.
I remember Justice had a good arm and decent range. Nixon was fast, but his arm was so-so. gant was a converted 2nd baseman that I saw drop a few pop-ups. Mitchell was great filling in for “Long Ball” Lonie (maybe we should have let him pinch run in game 6!) T.P. could pick it at third. Raffy was great and Blauser was decent. Lemmer and Tredway were a good platoon (Lemmer was the better fielder.) Sid was outstanding. Olson was a solid catcher. That team might be a little better defensive wise.
“2 1/2 years in A-ball, 1 1/2 below high-A, is a bit excessive for a college player. Adam LaRoche was in AA after two years (a half year in rookie ball, 1 1/2 at high-A) and he wasn’t nearly the hitter that Howard was, and was a year younger to boot.”
Unlike Howard, Adam LaRoche doesn’t have a lead glove and the potential to set strike out records.
2 years at A-ball is certainly not rapid for a college player, but it’s not ridiculously slow either – especially if the player has problems he needs to work on. (His 169 at bats in a short-season league after he signed in 2001 aren’t too significant, IMO.)
Howard has averaged 1 error every 10 games as a minor leaguer – that’s not real good for a first baseman. Howard also struck out 179 times last year (vs. 62 walks). Altogether, Howard struck out 517 times in 1637 minor league at bats. That’s a pace of ~190 strikeouts per 600 at bats. When discussing established hitters at the major league level strikeouts don’t matter very much, but it is a red flag when a player strikes out that much in the low minors (especially if the player is admittedly on the old side for his league).
Adam was better in 2000 with Danville than Howard was in 2001 with Batavia (which motivated the Braves to promote LaRoche all the way to High-A the next season), and Adam was better in 2002 with Myrtle Beach than Howard was in 2003 with Clearwater (which motivated the Braves to promote LaRoche AA mid-season).
The Braves were definitely more aggressive with LaRoche. Yet, LaRoche was drafted out of college and played 433 minor league games while Howard was drafted out of college and played 444 minor league games. Not much difference. Technically, Howard spent about 1 less month in the minors than LaRoche.
Howard hit 48 home runs last season, which is certainly impressive. But in 2002, as a 22-year old playing against mostly younger players in Low-A, he hit 19 home runs while striking out 145 times and committing 17 errors. That doesn’t scream that he should have been playing at a higher level or promoted mid-season. The argument that the Phillies were holding him back would be a lot stronger if Howard had dominated A-ball, but he didn’t.
The Phillies aren’t the sharpest organization and they were not very aggressive with Howard early in his career (probably because of the aforementioned issues with fielding and strikeouts). But before Howard’s breakout season in 2004 he had no business being anywhere near a ML roster – so at most the Phillies held him back by a couple of months.
alex….who cares about Adam LaRoche?…i do…he’s young..still getting better..and even sharing time with franco is on pace for 100+ RBI’s..plus he has the highest avg. with two outs and runners in scoring postion(makings of a gamer)….i’d say he could be a stud and is already turning into one..
The idea that Adam LaRoche is not a long term solution at 1B is stupid. He can certainly man the position until 2010, and that is about as long term as I am worried about at the moment. The platoon of LaRoche/Franco is about the 10-13th best(as a 1B) in the major leagues if you treat them as one player. At the ages of 24 and 25, Adam LaRoche has a career OPS of .816(.277/.333/.483). Over the secondhalf of last season Adam LaRoche showed what he is capable of doing, raising his OPS from .685 to .821 in about 2 months. His OPS during that span was close to 1.000. At his peak I honestly see LaRoche capable of something like .300/.360/.540 and maybe more. That is a terrefic player. We don’t need a young 1B, because we have one. We don’t need a good 1B because we have one.
The only question about LaRoche is “is he made expendable by the precense of Andy Marte?”. If we’re making a decision between him and Marte, I’d put my money on Marte. Maybe LaRoche makes me eat that somewhere down the line, but I can live with that risk. I would not risk Marte, LaRoche and Larry’s future ability to maintain 3B for Ryan Howard, though.
Chipper needs to be at 3rd and Laroche at 1st. Whoever came up with the idea of trading Laroche to bring Chipper to 1st and Marte to 3rd is an idiot. Marte is still along way from being a productive 3rd baseman in the majors.
Lets trade Marte for a good closer we can sign for a couple of years or let him stay in either AA or AAA for another year or two. Can anyone give me any insight on why Vasquez was sent to AAA and Bernero is still w/ us?
We’re idiots and you want to trade the team’s best/most ready prospect for a closer?! Trading for a closer at this point in the season is, almost by definiton, a panic move. Sometimes it’s necessary, but usually it’s not worth the King’s ransom you pay. Just because it would cost your best prospect doesn’t make it a smart move. I’d love it if this team had a better closer, but certainly not at the expense of Marte. I’d love it if this team could hold onto LaRoche, but certainly not if it means losing or wasting Marte. If that makes me an idiot, I can live with it.
What do people here think about Laroche’s speed and how that figures into his long-term value? He seems pretty slow to me already. If he continues to slow down, he will have to be an excellent batter to compensate, and I’m not sure he is that good.
Despite his struggles in the majors thus far, Marte IS ready. He has proven that in the minors. We can’t trade him because we need him to play 3B the rest of the season. My thinking is that Chipper is going to come back, struggle for about 2 weeks, and then have surgery. All he has been doing is resting and I am hesistant to believe that is going to fix his feet. If I were going to trade anyone on the team it is Wilson Betemit. It would hurt the bench, but if I could get anything resembling a solid RP for him I would do it. Wilson Betemit is a worse baseball player than Rafael Furcal, despite all the hero worship he has been getting from Braves fans. Betemit also can’t play SS for us long term. He is a 3B, and a league average one at that. He is the best trade bait we havem, but I don’t particularly want to trade him for Mike MacDougal.
Furcal is almost certainly gone after this season. There is not a major-league ready shortstop in the organization after Betemit. If you trade him, you are going to wind up with either a terrible free agent or a terrible rookie playing shortstop every day.
It’s an inescapable problem. Love Wilson or hate him, where else do you turn? You can’t pay Furcal what someone else will… it’s just crazy. You can’t have Tony Pena, Jr. or Luis Hernandez be your eveyday shortstop… can you? I don’t have any idea how bad a shortstop Wilson Betemit is. But can he be so bad that if forced to choose between him, an over-priced FA (Furcal, or another if you can find one) and one of the two Belliard clones in the minors that you wouldn’t choose Betemit?
I don’t see how you can trade him unless there’s just no way in hell he can cover short for a year or two. If there’s any chance at all that he could, you have to keep him.
Well trading for a closer is not a panic move when you dont have a closer. Are we going to have Danny close for us again, he already proved he wasnt capable of that task. Reitsma only 7 saves in 11 opportunities that’s not going to make the cut either.
Now this leaves us with either trading someone for a closer or making one of our starters a possible closer down the road. Davies or Sosa is probably the only option for a closer, but Sosa needs to stay in the starting position if possible. Not a panic move but a smart move.
It’s a panic move because it’s the most over-priced thing on the market. And it’s definitely a panic move if you trade your best/most ready prospect. Even if you’d rather have LaRoche than Marte (again, assuming that’s the choice) you can do a helluva lot better than one of the closers that’s likely to be available. The best, most optimistic rumors that I’ve heard are Lidge and Wagner. The first has a history of arm problems and is hurting, and the other has talked about retiring at the end of the year. So, no, I can’t agree that’s the Marte market of interest. But, hey, I don’t run the team. And I suppose I probably am something of an idiot… although I certainly don’t give your opinion any sway in the matter.
And you’re short-changing Reitsma. He has four blown saves, yes. But since there’s no such thing as a “blown hold”, he’s gotten two of those in games where he was really just out there going for a hold. Since a hold and a save only really differ in whether or not you finish the game, but a “blown save” can be earned when you really only have a “hold opp”, you kinda have to say it’s more like 7 saves, 8 holds and 4 blown saves in 19 opportunities. Not great, but far from disatrous. If you want to only talk his “closing” stats, it’s 7 saves in 9 opps. That’s not so bad, but it’s only been 9 opportunities in the artificial “save situation” as designated closer.
What do you really see Furcal getting on the open market?
Also, if Furcal walks(which he probably will) isn’t the best (in-house) option for SS next season Andy Marte? He’s at least AS good if not better than Betemit defensively, and lets Wilson play the utility role he should be in, and we don’t have to move Adam.
Based on the last 4 free agent shortstop signings, I would expect him to get $7-8 million for 3-4 four years pretty easily.
I don’t know that Marte has ever played shortstop. But it wouldn’t bother me if he can do it. If it’s that straight-forward, then of course that’s a better option. I just have no idea. My expectation is that he’s not considered an option.
I have a hunch: Matt Lawton.
I didnt know someone was going to take a comment so personal. I stated that we have two options with him at this point. Either trade him for someone that we need or let him spend the remainder of the year in triple AAA. My main point was dont move Chipper to first in order to bring up Marte.
There is no doubt Marte will be great one day and I would love to see him play SS next year and leave Chipper at third. Everyone knows that Furcal wont be back next year, but we cant get rid of him at this point either. Why should we not wait until next year to have Chipper, Marte, and LaRoche instead of just Chipper and Marte and then we have to look for another SS?
I didnt know someone would take my comment so personal. I stated that we had two options with him either trade Marte or let him finish the remainder of the year in AAA. I would rather keep him and let him play SS next year than just trade him away for a closer, who wouldn’t?
I just dont agree with getting rid of a good ball player in order to bring someone up from the minors, especially when the greater need for Marte will be next year at SS. I would rather have Chipper, Marte, and LaRoche next year than just Chipper and Marte and then having to find another SS. That was my only point!
sorry for the double post
It’s really hard not to take being called an idiot personal. If you think I’m wrong, that’s not a big deal to me. Disagreeing is part of the fun. I don’t know about you, but I don’t feel any need to suggest that anyone who disagrees with me is actually stupid…. just of a different opinion. But that’s just me. If saying that those who disagree are idiots wasn’t any part of your point… well, you could’ve just left it out.
I apologize.. it was meant to be more of a figure of speech than to point fingers at anyone. I agree that disagreeing is what makes all of this fun.
Thanks, man. And as Skip might say… honesty compells me to report that I tend to take things a little too personally sometimes.
Natspos just inked Stanton. We can coast from here!
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