Philadelphia 6 Atlanta 3

ESPN.com – MLB – Box Score – Braves at Phillies

Not that close. Horacio stunk up the joint, and the Braves were one-hit until the ninth. After getting through the first easily, Ramirez allowed single runs in the second, third, and fourth, and was chased in the fifth after giving up a three-run homer to the inexcuseable David Bell. The loser relievers (Gryboski, Kolb, Bernero, Vasquez — not all necessarily losers, but they only pitch when Bobby doesn’t have a choice or the Braves are losing) held the Phillies scoreless after that, but it mattered little.

The only Braves hit for the first eight innings was a single by LaRoche in the second. Brett Myers completely shut them down until they got three hits and a walk in the ninth to score three runs, and bring in Billy Wagner, who got Andruw and the inexplicably pinch-hitting Jordan to end it. (Honestly, is Bobby saying that Jordan has a better chance to get a hit off a lefty than LaRoche? Because I don’t see it.)

Juliometer.GIFJulio got number 2,493 as part of the too-late rally in the ninth; the race between him and Smoltz for 2,500 is still close. Marcus doubled in two, Betemit got out of his mini-slump, possibly, with a single to lead off, and Furcal got a walk. That’s it for the offense.

Night game on ESPN tomorrow, Jorge Sosa against rookie Robinson Tejeda, who is walking a lot of people but still has a 2.35 ERA. The Natspos will win by one run tonight, I’m sure.

67 thoughts on “Philadelphia 6 Atlanta 3”

  1. At least we didn’t get totally embarrassed. 6-3 is respectable, even if the game wasn’t actually that good. Brett Myers was totally filthy until the 9th when he started looking like Bernero. Betemit’s first-pitch single had me jumping up and down, that’s how bad this game was. Ramirez? Filthy in a totally different sense of the word. That 3-run bomb cost us the game. It was okay until he gave that up, to one of the worst guys on their team. Of course, short fly balls are home runs in this park, but he was leaving everything either right over the plate or in the dirt. He was bad all day. At least the game was short so they can all go to Live 8 haha.

    Game on ESPN tomorrow right after the All-Star selection show. Do they announce the backups and pitchers then, too, or is that later? I’ve never been home for the ASG in about 5 years so I have no clue.

  2. Small sample, but Laroche has a .420 OPS against lefties this year. That hurts.

  3. Okay, thanks for the info, Mac. Cross your fingers for Andruw…although I’m not sure an ASG spot would really reflect his entire season or just the fact that he’s on an incredible hot streak and has 26 HRs. What do you guys think? Does he deserve it?

  4. Of course he does. He’s a gold glove CF leading the league in homers; that’s not just the description of an All-Star but of an MVP candidate. Among NL CF, he’s first in slugging, RBI, and (of course) homers; second in OPS; third in runs scored; fourth in average and OBP. And since he hardly ever leaves the lineup, he’s more valuable than the only CF who could be considered a better hitter, Edmonds. He’s created 61 runs this season; second place among CF is Brady Clark, at 51, with Edmonds a little back in third.

  5. Jordan has hit LHP better than LaRoche this year, but I’m not sure that’s the right question to ask. The right question might be, “Who is more likely to have the bat off their shoulder by the time a 98 MPH fastball crosses the plate?” I think Wagner would have struck out Jordan if they made him throw eight strikes instead of three….

  6. Andruw and Smoltz are probably gimmes. The only other legit candidate is Marcus, but there are a lot of candidates at second base. Kent’s the one obvious choice, Utley’s having a great year, Castillo is hitting .337, and there’s still Biggio. There are about six guys who could get taken, and that’s before you start dealing with the one-per-team rule.

    In a weak catching crop, Estrada doesn’t stand out as manifestly unqualified but there are ten guys with as good of a case. Catcher’s always a good spot to find a token all-star. Actually, the best OPS as a catcher of any player in the NL this year is held by… Brian McCann! That’s just 30 AB, of course.

  7. .420 OPS is putrid, but then again, he never gets a chance to have ABs against lefties, how is he supposed to improve?

  8. Actually, other than the guys I’ve mentioned, the only other Braves who have gotten enough PT to be a serious candidate are Ramirez, Furcal, and I guess Reitsma. None of them has met the slightest of All-Star standards, as you all know. Andruw, Marcus, Furcal, and LaRoche are the only players on the team who qualify for the batting title, and Smoltz, Hudson (who will soon drop off) and Ramirez the only ones for ERA.

  9. For a change of pace, the Nats won by two.

    I’m really starting to hate this team.

  10. I wrote the above about Laroche not to suggest that Jordan would do better – perish the thought! Anyone who has seen me post before should know better than that :) I was merely pointing out that Adam’s sample of PA against LHP this year are none too flattering, and in that context, pinch-hitting for him makes sense. We don’t really have any other RHB pinch-hitters on the team other than Jordan and Franco, though. If Julio was available, he should have hit.

  11. Mac’s right about Andruw and it’s a no brainer because we could say that all the guys selected or voted in had hot streaks for the entire intital half of the year. Let’s keep in mind how much Andruw’s value has increased with his new found hitting prowess when all we have to do is just consider that he’s the best fielding outfielder in the game and the most durable.

  12. .420 OPS is putrid, but then again, he never gets a chance to have ABs against lefties, how is he supposed to improve?

    You’re right, and no one is really blaming LaRoche for that. But as long as Julio is as valuable as he is LaRoche is not going to see many lefty pitchers. But this isn’t about why Laroche is hitting that way against lefties, it’s about making the right move in a single situation. And even though he struck out, I see no fault in pinch hitting Jordan there. As Kyle said, if Julio hadn’t been in the game already he would have been first choice.

  13. And, gosh, it’s not like we’re carrying eight relievers and have three or four guys in Richmond who are righthanded and can pound the ball. Oh, wait.

    LaRoche probably can hit lefties, or could with a little more regular work. But you have Julio on the roster, and he hits lefties better than LaRoche is ever likely to, so you don’t have much choice.

  14. Jordan should be off the roster and replaced with someone who can actually hit. The only LH he seems able to hit is the ghost of Al Leiter. Whoopee. There are probably JV players out there who could paste Leiter at this point. Jordan su-hu-hucks royally and is going to end up costing the team down the line in a situation just like today. Bank on it. It’s stuff like that keeping Bobby Cox from being a truly great manager. I don’t care how many wins he “has.” Good manager, there’s no doubt about that, but not great.

  15. No doubt because he refuses to accept that Bobby wins games — he only loses them.

    Bobby is a great manager. He isn’t perfect, but who is? LaRussa is obsessed with tiny tactical advantages that in the end cost his team games because he’s carrying pitchers who aren’t any good. Davey Johnson is apparently the most annoying person in the world. Billy Martin and Leo Durocher were assholes. Joe McCarthy was a drunk. Et cetera.

  16. As has been said over and over, there’s not really a better option than Jordan at this point. McCarthy should really be playing every day, so unless they decide to bring him up and make him the everyday RF, he should stay in AAA for now.

  17. How is it Cox’s fault that Jordan is on the roster, anyway? No doubt he has input on those decisions, but the final determination belongs to Schuerholz. With the pitching situation, Cox is playing with a 3-man bench plus a catcher, so it’s unavoidable that Jordan will occasionally play. Seems to me he’s playing him as little as possible these days.

  18. Chuck James won again Thursday 6 innings 1 run is now 5-0 2.40 era. How much longer will he stay down. IMO JS needs to get some bullpen help or bring him up in spot relief before Nats run away/

  19. To be nitpicky, Horacio wasn’t really DIPS unlucky today; he gave up two homers in 5 innings. Given his current homer allowed rate, his DIPS ERA might be even worse than it was last year.

  20. Just a thought…

    Betemit might never have more trade value than he does RIGHT NOW.

  21. If we get Rey Ordonez to replace Furcal I will cry. And I agree about Jordan: Bobby seems to be playing him as little as possible. He comes up in a key situation and strikes out on 3 pitches. Of course, was it just me or did the strike zone seem to change every inning today?

    One good thing today: when Marcus came up in the 9th and started hacking away at everything in sight, I confidently predicted he would strike out swinging like an idiot, like he’s done so many times this season. He hit a 2-run double. Sorry, Marcus! Thanks for proving me wrong.

    Mike Piazza as the starting catcher. What are these people smoking?

  22. Piazza isn’t very good anymore, but then there aren’t any good catchers in the NL anymore. Lo Duca is probably the best, but the difference between him and half a dozen others is pretty minimal. Piazza’s as good of a choice as any.

  23. Jordan is not as bad as some are claiming, and he’s been steadily bringins his numbers up. Keep in mind he didn’t hit at all last year so it’s common sense that he wouldn’t begin the year at the highest level he’s capable of. You either give him the at-bats to get going or you get him off the roster, and since Cox doesn’t make that decision, seems to me he has only one option.

    One good thing today: when Marcus came up in the 9th and started hacking away at everything in sight, I confidently predicted he would strike out swinging like an idiot, like he’s done so many times this season. He hit a 2-run double. Sorry, Marcus! Thanks for proving me wrong.

    Sheesh, that’s awfully harsh. He was taking good swings at strikes, I don’t see how that’s considered “swinging like an idiot”…but then again I’m a coach, so what do I know.

  24. Except for his arm. That alone is reason enough not to vote for him. Plus the fact that I hate it when people vote for what a guy did, rather than what he’s doing. Piazza has not been his superstar self for several years now. I went for Lo Duca every time.

  25. Addendum to Grst: Maybe it was kind of harsh. But it seems like an awful lot of the time, he swings so hard at stuff he should have a herniated disc and just totally misses. And that he gets to 2 strikes pretty quickly. I’ve noticed it this year more than in previous years, probably because his production is down, so can you really blame me for thinking he’d strike out?

  26. I don’t really care who’s having the best season, Jenny. Piazza, like I said, isn’t all that good anymore, but I think he’s still probably the best or second-best catcher in the league. The arm isn’t that big of a deal, really.

  27. Rameriz had absolutely nothing today. After reading the post-game comments from Cox, I think he is very frustrated by Rameriz as well. You know what, looking at Rameriz’s split stats against left-handed hitter, I think he should be in the bullpen being the second lefty. I think the role will suite him better, or we can send him to Richmond to work on his control.

    When everyone comes back, I believe we should send Davies back to Richmond to work on his control (he has been overworked anyway), keep either Colon or Sosa in the rotation, drop Benarro, demote Vasquez. The bullpen will have Reitsma, Brower, Boyer, Kolb, Foster, Gryboski and Sosa/Colon.

    With the development of Sosa, Colon, Davies, Lerew, and James this year, Rameriz is perfectly expandable. He will get a decent salary increase this off-season like Estrada. So, I will not be surprised if we trade Rameriz away in July or this offseason. Not sure about the trade value of Rameriz though…

  28. Today’s start against the Phillies exposed the main problem with Ramirez; that being, if you can’t miss bats, sooner or later the bats are going to put a hurting on you. Horacio’s K/9 rate of 2.79 ranks dead last among the 111 major league pitchers with enough innings to qualify, as does his 0.85 K/BB rate. That combination makes it impossible to succeed consistently. He’s reached his ceiling as a major league pitcher. Comparisons to Glavine are completely off-base — Glavine was striking out more than twice as many batters as Horacio at a comparable age. Health and confidence are Horacio’s main attributes. If he can ride run support to 13 wins this year, perhaps the Braves could trick someone into taking him after the season — the Tigers used to have entire pitching staffs of Horacio clones.

  29. Hey, Mac, no problem man. I always thought I have his name right. I guess not!!! Thanks for the correction.

  30. Who would play shortstop next year if Betemit is traded? Probably Yunel Escobar, the Cuban defector the Braves drafted this year. After he was drafted many experts were predicting he would be on the fast track to the majors, much like Joey Devine is thought to be. Today he was promoted to Rome from Danville of the Rookie League where he hit .400 with 2 homers and 8 RBIs in 8 games.

  31. A player at Rome is at minimum two years away from the majors. Even Andruw didn’t make it up until the end of the year after he spent at that level, and wasn’t really ready for two years after that. If Escobar even sticks at shortstop it won’t be until 2007 at earliest that they’d think about him, probably 2008.

  32. It’s at least a possibility. I got this from a good, comprehensive interview Bill Shanks did with the scout who signed him, Gregg Kilby.

    Scout Compares Escobar to Renteria
    http://story.scout.com/a.z?s=228&p=2&c=390987

    “SHANKS: You know the questions the fans have is whether or not he might be a candidate to replace Furcal if Furcal leaves via free agency this winter.
    KILBY: Thats something for the player development people to decide. In my report I have in there that hes advanced and can move quickly. If hes 22 hed be a college senior. Hed be way advanced for a college senior. He wont start at AA, but I think he could and not embarrass himself. Its not like hes a small kid that needs to get strength. I just think he needs some experience. Next year, is that too soon? I dont know. Itll have to play itself out.”

  33. I think trading our surplus pitching will get more in return than Betemit. Therefore, there is really no point to trade Betemit. Besides, I am not crazy at all about Tony Pena Jr and Hernendez at AA, not to mention Escobar. In addition, I heard Escobar made four errors in five games. So, his defense is definitely not ready even if his bat is (which is still a question itself). Wait until Escobar proves himself against US competition for at least a year, then we can make better judgement on his talent.

  34. Considering Jordan is one of the worst, if not THE worst, hitters in baseball this year I really fail to see how there are no better options than him. He’s pissed away 209 AB to the tune of .244/.289/.335. Sorry but it’s time to cut him loose. There is no way in hell that anyone who hits that poorly is useful in any way. Period. I heard the same thing about Langerhans and Johnson not being better options than Jordan or Mondesi and.. oops.. guess those idiots were wrong, hm? Call up John Barnes, I guarantee the guy will outhit Jordan by a mile.

    As for the “It’s not Bobby’s fault he’s on the roster” comment, how do you figure? Do you really think Cox has no say so in regards to whether Jordan stays on the roster or not? Please. If Bobby wanted him gone, he’d be gone. Period. Obviously he doesn’t so it IS his fault. It’s also his fault, not Schuerholz’s or anyone else’s, that Jordan continues to get AB. Hell, the guy is still getting starts.

    And Mac, no, I don’t believe Bobby loses games any more than he wins them. I wasn’t blaming Bobby for tonight’s loss. I just find it funny that we shouldn’t judge pitchers by win totals (I definitely agree) but managers should be? Uh, why?

  35. Cox frustrates the hell out of me plenty of times. And I think Jordan is done. But every manager does things that drive people nuts. And just about every team has someone like Jordan. I’ll gripe about both of them all day long, but I’m nowhere near to thinking Bobby Cox is anything but a great manager. And it’s frustrating to hear people say that he’s not. You simply cannot put together a string of teams like this and not be a great manager. And don’t give me this “anybody can manage a team of all-stars” shit. It’s been 14 years, man. FOURTEEN. I don’t care who you’ve had on your teams (and the rosters haven’t always been packed with all-stars). Who would you rather have?

    I’d like to see Jordan gone, too.. if he can be replaced with someone better at a reasonable cost. If you have someone in the minors and you bring him up only to hit against righties, you risk damaging his trade value either by having him struggle or type-casting him as a platoon player. And there is some value in preserving the trade value of everyone in the minors because the person you want to call up to play once or twice a week may just bring us the reliever we need if we leave him where he is for now. Bobby is not playing Jordan much at all. I don’t think he’s good anymore, but he isn’t coming anywhere near to killing this team. To put up the fact that he’s using Jordan against lefties as evidence that Cox is anything less than a great manager is beyond extreme.

  36. Get Real:

    Do you really think Cox has no say so in regards to whether Jordan stays on the roster or not? Please. If Bobby wanted him gone, he’d be gone. Period

    Me:

    No doubt he has input on those decisions, but the final determination belongs to Schuerholz.

    Player acquisition is the GMs job. You’re blaming Cox based on assumptions about the relationship between Cox and Schuerholz that you can’t possibly know. Do you know that Cox hasn’t privately told Schuerholz that they need an upgrade, and that Schuerholz isn’t working on it?

    As for John Barnes, he put up some gaudy stats in the PCL a few years ago, but everybody does. Now he’s 29 years old, hitting .276/.330/.367 at Richmond. That doesn’t look like an upgrade to me.

    Your original assertion was that Cox is not a great manager, and it sounds like you don’t accept wins and losses as an acceptable judge of greatness. OK, I’ll cite the unbroken (except for 1994) string of 13 banners around Turner Field, accomplished with every manner of team imaginable, along with the testimonials of just about everyone in the game who’s checked in with an opinion, and say that he is. Who’s better, and why?

  37. 9 rookies have already been up.get real, what else do you want? you have to have veteran leadership around, and jordan is not that bad. we are in 2nd place, with 4 HUGE players on the dl. we really need to get our rotation back, get chip back, and run with it. cutting jordan is not going to help. the only solution is to get some bullpen help, and i belive it’s coming soon. heck, if we cut jordan we might as well cut langerhans, because he is not lighting it up either(not saying to cut him, just giving a scenario). bobby is doing the best with what he has, and i think the outfield situation is the best it could possibly be.

  38. How can people still say Bobby is not a great manager? I mean, I always doubt Bobby’s decisions, but I think you can say the same thing about all MLB managers. Perhaps people could still say “anybody can manage a team of all-stars” shit…until last year. If last season doesn’t prove the greatness of Bobby Cox, I don’t know what will. At some point, we have to accept the fact that even a great manager is not perfect.

  39. By the way, does anybody notice we are third in the league in scoring and fourth in the league in ERA? When we get Chipper, Hampton, Hudson and Thomson back, the Cardinals will be the only team I will be worrying about.

  40. Giles has 4 more strikeouts than Andruw in almost 30 fewer plate appearances. Without question, his strikeout rate this year is much worse than it has been in the past:
    Year AB K K/AB
    2003 551 80 0.145190563
    2004 379 70 0.18469657
    2005 273 61 0.223443223

    That’s a troubling trend in my eyes.

  41. That print is just troubling to my eyes, period. But yeah, Giles is definately not displaying the complete hitter potential he had when he came up.

  42. Jordan isn’t the only example. Shane Reynolds anybody? Rico Brogna? Keith f’ing Lockhart? This is a regular occurrence for Bobby Cox. IMO, truly great managers would not do this. You don’t have to agree, I’m just stating my opinion. And I also think that truly great managers would pull out more than one World Series win out of five opportunities. Here’s where you bring up luck and the postseason, right? Hell, let’s not even talk World Series. If Bobby’s so great, why has the team failed to advance past the first round of the playoffs for five consecutive years? Luck and postseason again, hm? And I never said anything about managing a team of all-stars, nice straw man though.

    I believe the ultimate decision belongs with Bobby Cox. Sorry but there’s no way in hell that Schuerholz would say “Sorry, guy, he’s staying” if Bobby went to him and say “Cut Jordan.” Please don’t tell me that you believe that’s the case.

    The comment about cutting Langerhans as well is asinine. Langerhans is outhitting Jordan by a mile. You’re barking up the wrong tree, chief. Jordan flat out sucks and you all know it. There’s no defending the guy. I have to say that it’s hilarious that people still try to, though.

    Oh and creynolds, Bobby is NOT just playing Jordan vs. LH. I’m not going to play the little “who’s better” game, so save it. It’s not as if I’m saying Bobby is mediocre. He’s a rather good manager, I just don’t buy that he’s an all-time great manager. Sorry.

  43. Somebody woke up on the wrong side of the bed this morning.

    I think having 13 consecutive division titles to your credit qualifies you as an all-time great manager. I’ve increasingly been baffled by some of Bobby’s moves, but I think he deserves the benefit of the doubt from us. We’re not watching the KC Royals, after all. The Braves give us pretty enjoyable baseball. As for the post-season, I don’t know. Something about Bobby’s managing style isn’t suited to sudden death overtime. But our offense also dies in the playoffs, and what is he supposed to do, hit himself?

    No cutting Langerhans, for the simple reason that he is much younger than Jordan. You can’t teach an old dog new tricks. Langerhans needs more time; he’s just a rookie, after all. Jordan has been excellent in the clubhouse and Bobby really likes him. This is probably why he’s still on the team, because he’s kind of useless on the field. He should go.

    Why is sansho1’s post repeated 3 times?

  44. Bobby definitely does some things that have me wanting to pull out what little hair I have, but he’s still a great manager simply because of the division titles. I can remember the days when I prayed to the baseball gods to allow the Braves to finish over .500 in a season. Now we all gripe about the lack of World Series victories. I will say that the one thing Bobby did that always pissed me off was pitch Steve Avery in a relief role in Game 4 of the 1996 World Series. Avery had already made no bones about the fact that he wanted to go somewhere else and he was dissatisfied. So what does Cox do? He puts him out there to let Steve blow it (he got credited with the loss). But the only thing most remember about that game is the Leyritz homerun off of Wohlers. I remember Stinky Steve Avery. And I will never forgive Bobby for that one.

  45. To get real:
    GET REAL!
    i dont want to become misquoted. i never said that langerhans should be cut. i just said that if we’re looking at cutting brian, then we might as well cut langerhans(which i think is also absurd). it is my opinion that jordan still has some use (leadership, decent defender, coming around in hitting). noone is dead wrong in their opinions, and obviously you don’t read peoples whole blogs before you start your useless gibberish. are u even a braves fan? u sound as though you found the wrong blog. . by the way, in your OPINION, who would you consider an ALL-TIME GREAT manager?
    p.s. kc, all good points.

  46. Bobby is a very good manager, and I always kind of took for granted that any manager with so many straight division titles has to be good. Then I read JC’s excellent analysis of Leo Mazzone, and I ceased being such a devout believer.

    Now, it could very easily that some of the “Mazzone effect” is due to Cox, but let’s pretend it’s not. Is Bobby Cox still a hall of fame manager?

    In JC’s article, he attributes about a .63 ERA shift per pitcher to Leo. Extrapolated to an entire season, that’s about 102 runs prevented (.63 * 162). That’s gigantic. (Note, however, that this overstates Mazzone’s ability a little bit, as starters are helped less than relievers, but for simplicity, let’s stick to the .63 per game).

    How big is 102 runs prevented? Well, using the pythagorean alg with a 1.85 exponent on an average team, using numbers from baseball-reference.com for the 2004 season, 102 runs prevented raises the average team’s record from 81-81 to 92-70.

    So, knock 11 wins off every season Bobby had Mazzone with him, and he suddenly doesn’t look like a hall of famer.

    Note that this brief glance both ignores Cox’s impact on the “Mazzone effect” and ignores the starter/reliever split, but it really looks like Cox is only a “pretty good” manager with his pitching coach.

  47. If Mazzone has been worth 11 wins a year over the past decade, he is perhaps the most valuable coach or manager in baseball history.

  48. If anyone really cares, he or she could do two simple things to get a more accurate number:

    One could look at starter innings and relief innings pitched for the Braves and use JC’s breakdown to get a more accurate runs prevented number for Leo.

    One could look at the runs scored and allowed by the Braves in those years and use those as a reference point instead of the league average for 2004, which I only used because I could look it up in 30 seconds.

  49. No offense, but since we have to pretend that none of the “Mazzone effect” has been due to Bobby Cox, I’m not sure what to do with it.

    I know that Get Real wants me to “save” the “who’s better” game, so I suppose that he want me to “shove” the fact that I’m asking again.

    Seriously, man. You’re playing that game already. You just don’t have a name. Good, great, lousy, etc. are relative terms. So you if Bobby isn’t great, then there must be someone better (or has there just never been a great manager?). I think different decisions in some areas would make the team better. That’s not really a powerful argument, since there are plenty decisions made in total. And, as you said, we really don’t know how many there are or how involved the decisions on personnel, etc. So I’m not convinced. You put more weight in postseason series wins for this measure than I do, so we’ll just have to leave that where it is I guess. But I still think it’s very fair to ask you who is better.

    And Jordan isn’t good. I do definitely agree with you there.

  50. No offense, but since we have to pretend that none of the “Mazzone effect” has been due to Bobby Cox, I’m not sure what to do with it.

    I know that Get Real wants me to “save” the “who’s better” game, so I suppose that he want me to “shove” the fact that I’m asking again.

    Seriously, man. You’re playing that game already. You just don’t have a name. Good, great, lousy, etc. are relative terms. So you if Bobby isn’t great, then there must be someone better (or has there just never been a great manager?). I think different decisions in some areas would make the team better. That’s not really a powerful argument, since there are plenty decisions made in total. And, as you said, we really don’t know how many there are or how involved the decisions on personnel, etc. So I’m not convinced. You put more weight in postseason series wins for this measure than I do, so we’ll just have to leave that where it is I guess. But I still think it’s very fair to ask you who is better.

    And Jordan isn’t good. I do definitely agree with you there.

  51. No offense, but since we have to pretend that none of the “Mazzone effect” has been due to Bobby Cox, I’m not sure what to do with it.

    I know that Get Real wants me to “save” the “who’s better” game, so I suppose that he want me to “shove” the fact that I’m asking again.

    Seriously, man. You’re playing that game already. You just don’t have a name. Good, great, lousy, etc. are relative terms. So you if Bobby isn’t great, then there must be someone better (or has there just never been a great manager?). I think different decisions in some areas would make the team better. That’s not really a powerful argument, since there are plenty decisions made in total. And, as you said, we really don’t know how many there are or how involved the decisions on personnel, etc. So I’m not convinced. You put more weight in postseason series wins for this measure than I do, so we’ll just have to leave that where it is I guess. But I still think it’s very fair to ask you who is better.

    And Jordan isn’t good. I do definitely agree with you there.

  52. No offense, but since we have to pretend that none of the “Mazzone effect” has been due to Bobby Cox, I’m not sure what to do with it. It’d be interesting to know, and there’s no doubt in my mind that Leo is a huge part of this. But that’s also what managing is about – surrounding yourself with the best coachs. Obviously, JS has plenty to say too.

    I know that Get Real wants me to “save” the “who’s better” game, so I suppose that he want me to “shove” the fact that I’m asking again.

    Seriously, man. You’re playing that game already. You just don’t have a name. Good, great, lousy, etc. are relative terms. So you if Bobby isn’t great, then there must be someone better (or has there just never been a great manager?). I think different decisions in some areas would make the team better. That’s not really a powerful argument, since there are plenty decisions made in total. And, as you said, we really don’t know how many there are or how involved the decisions on personnel, etc. So I’m not convinced. You put more weight in postseason series wins for this measure than I do, so we’ll just have to leave that where it is I guess. But I still think it’s very fair to ask you who is better.

    And Jordan isn’t good. I do definitely agree with you there.

  53. No offense, but since we have to pretend that none of the “Mazzone effect” has been due to Bobby Cox, I’m not sure what to do with it. It’d be interesting to know, and there’s no doubt in my mind that Leo is a huge part of this. But that’s also what managing is about – surrounding yourself with the best coachs. Obviously, JS has plenty to say too.

    I know that Get Real wants me to “save” the “who’s better” game, so I suppose that he want me to “shove” the fact that I’m asking again.

    Seriously, man. You’re playing that game already. You just don’t have a name. Good, great, lousy, etc. are relative terms. So you if Bobby isn’t great, then there must be someone better (or has there just never been a great manager?). I think different decisions in some areas would make the team better. That’s not really a powerful argument, since there are plenty decisions made in total. And, as you said, we really don’t know how many there are or how involved the decisions on personnel, etc. So I’m not convinced. You put more weight in postseason series wins for this measure than I do, so we’ll just have to leave that where it is I guess. But I still think it’s very fair to ask you who is better.

    And Jordan isn’t good. I do definitely agree with you there.

  54. No offense, but since we have to pretend that none of the “Mazzone effect” has been due to Bobby Cox, I’m not sure what to do with it. It’d be interesting to know, and there’s no doubt in my mind that Leo is a huge part of this. But that’s also what managing is about – surrounding yourself with the best coachs. Obviously, JS has plenty to say too.

    I know that Get Real wants me to “save” the “who’s better” game, so I suppose that he want me to “shove” the fact that I’m asking again.

    Seriously, man. You’re playing that game already. You just don’t have a name. Good, great, lousy, etc. are relative terms. So you if Bobby isn’t great, then there must be someone better (or has there just never been a great manager?). I think different decisions in some areas would make the team better. That’s not really a powerful argument, since there are plenty decisions made in total. And, as you said, we really don’t know how many there are or how involved the decisions on personnel, etc. So I’m not convinced. You put more weight in postseason series wins for this measure than I do, so we’ll just have to leave that where it is I guess. But I still think it’s very fair to ask you who is better.

    And Jordan isn’t good. I do definitely agree with you there.

  55. No offense, but since we have to pretend that none of the “Mazzone effect” has been due to Bobby Cox, I’m not sure what to do with it. It’d be interesting to know, and there’s no doubt in my mind that Leo is a huge part of this. But that’s also what managing is about – surrounding yourself with the best coachs. Obviously, JS has plenty to say too.

    I know that Get Real wants me to “save” the “who’s better” game, so I suppose that he want me to “shove” the fact that I’m asking again.

    Seriously, man. You’re playing that game already. You just don’t have a name. Good, great, lousy, etc. are relative terms. So you if Bobby isn’t great, then there must be someone better (or has there just never been a great manager?). I think different decisions in some areas would make the team better. That’s not really a powerful argument, since there are plenty decisions made in total. And, as you said, we really don’t know how many there are or how involved the decisions on personnel, etc. So I’m not convinced. You put more weight in postseason series wins for this measure than I do, so we’ll just have to leave that where it is I guess. But I still think it’s very fair to ask you who is better.

    And Jordan isn’t good. I do definitely agree with you there.

  56. No offense, but since we have to pretend that none of the “Mazzone effect” has been due to Bobby Cox, I’m not sure what to do with it. It’d be interesting to know, and there’s no doubt in my mind that Leo is a huge part of this. But that’s also what managing is about – surrounding yourself with the best coachs. Obviously, JS has plenty to say too.

    I know that Get Real wants me to “save” the “who’s better” game, so I suppose that he want me to “shove” the fact that I’m asking again.

    Seriously, man. You’re playing that game already. You just won’t give a name. Good, great, lousy, etc. are relative terms. So if Cox isn’t great, then there must be someone better (or has there just never been a great manager?). I definitely believe that different decisions in some areas would make the team better. But that’s not really a powerful argument, since there are plenty decisions made in total. So I’m not convinced. You put more weight in postseason series wins for this measure than I do, so we’ll just have to leave that where it is I guess. But I still think it’s very fair to ask you who is better.

    And Jordan isn’t good. I do definitely agree with you there.

  57. I don’t know how you separate Cox from the “Mazzone effect”. It’d be interesting if you could, but I don’t know that you can. But that’s also what managing is about – surrounding yourself with the best coachs. Obviously, JS has plenty to say too.

    I know that Get Real wants me to “save” the “who’s better” game, so I suppose that he’ll want me to “shove” the fact that I’m asking again.

    Seriously, man. You’re playing that game already. You just don’t have a name. Good, great, lousy, etc. are relative terms. So if Bobby isn’t great, then there must be someone better, and you must know who that is since you know what makes a great manager (or has there just never been a great manager?). I think different decisions in some areas would make the team better (and now and in the past). But that’s not really a powerful argument, since there are plenty decisions made in total. And, as you said, we really don’t know how many there are or how involved the decisions on personnel, etc. So I’m not convinced on those grounds. You put more weight in postseason series wins for this measure than I do, so we’ll just have to leave that where it is I guess. But I still think it’s very fair to ask you who is better.

    And Jordan isn’t good. I do definitely agree with you there.

  58. Don’t forget the impact our relatively radical defensive positioning, and the coordination necessary to pitch to the positioning, might have on team ERA. This has been another constant, thanks primarily to the efforts of Pat Corrales.

    Sure seems like the Braves have a wealth of talent at the coaching level. Surely people like Mazzone and Corrales have gotten other offers, perhaps even to manage, and yet they stay. Why is that? Could it be….the manager? If the ability to retain talented lieutenants is considered a management skill (hint: it is), then you have to give Cox some credit there, too.

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